Did cop kill pregnant mistress to silence his secret?

Warning: This Warning: This podcast explores podcast explores podcast explores explicit and disturbing explicit and disturbing explicit and disturbing stories and contains stories and contains stories and contains strong language. Therefore, strong language. Therefore, strong language. Therefore, it may not be it may not be it may not be suitable for our suitable for our suitable for our younger listeners or younger listeners or younger listeners or others who others who others who may be upset by it. may be upset by it. may be upset by it. Welcome to "True Crime News" Welcome to "True Crime News" —a podcast that —a podcast that —a podcast that highlights highlights highlights high-profile and little-known high-profile and little-known high-profile and little-known cases from across the country every week cases from across the country every week . With you is your host, . With you is your host, . With you is your host, Anna Garcia. Our Anna Garcia. Our Anna Garcia. Our case this week: The case this week: The case this week: The death of a pregnant death of a pregnant death of a pregnant woman made to look like woman made to look like woman made to look like she committed she committed she committed suicide. The police suicide. The police suicide. The police and the medical examiner and the medical examiner and the medical examiner agreed with this, but agreed with this, but agreed with this, but her family and friends her family and friends her family and friends said, "You're all said, "You're all said, "You're all wrong." and wrong." and wrong." and provided potential evidence to the authorities provided potential evidence to the authorities provided potential evidence to the authorities . . . It took three years, It took three years, It took three years, but they were able to but they were able to but they were able to convince the FBI convince the FBI convince the FBI to open an to open an to open an investigation. According to investigation. According to investigation. According to federal federal federal prosecutors, she was killed by prosecutors, she was killed by prosecutors, she was killed by her her police officer boyfriend, who police officer boyfriend, who police officer boyfriend, who was married at the time was married at the time . Prosecutors say . Prosecutors say . Prosecutors say he was afraid she he was afraid she he was afraid she would reveal how would reveal how would reveal how their their their eight-year relationship began eight-year relationship began . presumably when she . presumably when she . presumably when she was only 15 years old and a was only 15 years old and a police cadet. She's dead, the police cadet. She's dead, the baby's dead, and the baby's dead, and the baby's dead, and the former former former police officer is now on police officer is now on police officer is now on trial for trial for trial for murder. We murder. We murder. We record this on Thursday record this on Thursday , October 15, 2026. Our , October 15, 2026. Our , October 15, 2026. Our guest today is Nima guest today is Nima guest today is Nima Romani. He is a former Romani. He is a former Romani. He is a former federal prosecutor federal prosecutor , president and , president and , president and founder of West Coast Trial founder of West Coast Trial founder of West Coast Trial Lawyers, and a Lawyers, and a Lawyers, and a legal analyst legal analyst legal analyst you you you see in the news all the time.

see in the news all the time. see in the news all the time. Something happens. Something happens. Something happens. Nima is here to Nima is here to Nima is here to explain it to all of us. explain it to all of us. explain it to all of us. Welcome Welcome Welcome back, Nemo. back, Nemo. back, Nemo. Thank you for inviting me, Thank you for inviting me, Thank you for inviting me, Anna. Glad to be...Yeah, Anna. Glad to be...Yeah, Anna. Glad to be...Yeah, the joke is that when the joke is that when the joke is that when someone gets killed, you someone gets killed, you someone gets killed, you have to have to have to deal with me deal with me deal with me inviting me to inviting me to inviting me to discuss it. discuss it. Well, we always welcome Well, we always welcome your analysis, and your analysis, and your analysis, and today especially, today especially, today especially, because for us this is a because for us this is a very unusual very unusual case in many respects. This is a case in many respects. This is a case in many respects. This is a murder case from murder case from murder case from Massachusetts, but it's Massachusetts, but it's Massachusetts, but it's being tried in being tried in being tried in federal court on a federal court on a federal court on a very specific very specific very specific charge of charge of charge of murder. A former murder. A former murder. A former police officer police officer police officer is accused of is accused of is accused of murdering a witness or murdering a witness or murdering a witness or victim. What does this mean? victim. What does this mean? victim. What does this mean? Yes, it is definitely a Yes, it is definitely a Yes, it is definitely a very unique very unique very unique case for several case for several case for several reasons, and we will delve into it now reasons, and we will delve into it now reasons, and we will delve into it now . . . Obviously, there aren't that Obviously, there aren't that many police officers on trial for murder, many police officers on trial for murder, first of all. And there are first of all. And there are first of all. And there are accusations of accusations of accusations of concealing a crime concealing a crime , and there are very few federal , and there are very few federal , and there are very few federal murder cases murder cases murder cases . That's the point . That's the point . That's the point . Usually this . Usually this . Usually this involves a involves a involves a federal federal federal official, or a official, or a official, or a crime on a cruise crime on a cruise crime on a cruise ship or airplane, ship or airplane, ship or airplane, but in this but in this but in this particular case, particular case, particular case, the case involves the case involves the case involves the murder of a witness. And the murder of a witness. And the murder of a witness. And which witness exactly?

which witness exactly? which witness exactly? Witness of sexual Witness of sexual Witness of sexual violence. This violence. This violence. This really reminds me of really reminds me of really reminds me of David's case David's case David's case happening here in happening here in happening here in Los Angeles, doesn't Los Angeles, doesn't Los Angeles, doesn't it? where it is alleged it? where it is alleged that David killed that David killed that David killed Celeste Rivas Celeste Rivas Celeste Rivas Hernandez because Hernandez because Hernandez because she was going to she was going to she was going to expose him over a expose him over a expose him over a sexual relationship sexual relationship sexual relationship that began when that began when that began when she was a she was a she was a minor. So minor. So minor. So the circumstances here are somewhat the circumstances here are somewhat the circumstances here are somewhat similar. So, the hook similar. So, the hook similar. So, the hook for federal for federal for federal jurisdiction or the jurisdiction or the jurisdiction or the nexus is the murder of a nexus is the murder of a nexus is the murder of a witness to a crime and the witness to a crime and the witness to a crime and the murder of an murder of an murder of an unborn child. unborn child. unborn child. This is how a case This is how a case This is how a case gets from gets from gets from state court to state court to state court to federal court. federal court. federal court. But normally this would be a But normally this would be a But normally this would be a state case if state case if state case if state prosecutors handled state prosecutors handled state prosecutors handled it properly. Oh, it properly. Oh, it properly. Oh, and boy, the criticism and boy, the criticism and boy, the criticism that the that the that the state police and state police and state police and everyone everyone everyone involved in involved in involved in investigating this investigating this investigating this case, whether at the case, whether at the case, whether at the local or local or local or state level, got really took a state level, got really took a beating from the beating from the federal federal federal Justice Department Justice Department Justice Department for essentially for essentially for essentially botching the case. And that's botching the case. And that's botching the case. And that's exactly the approach in exactly the approach in exactly the approach in court, where federal court, where federal court, where federal prosecutors are telling prosecutors are telling prosecutors are telling the jury, and the the jury, and the the jury, and the trial is going on right trial is going on right trial is going on right now, that they now, that they now, that they screwed up.

screwed up. screwed up. Oh, I think "spoiled" Oh, I think "spoiled" is the right word. is the right word. is the right word. And listen, I And listen, I And listen, I graduated from law graduated from law graduated from law school in school in school in Massachusetts. I have Massachusetts. I have Massachusetts. I have a lot of friends there, and a lot of friends there, and a lot of friends there, and we discussed this we discussed this we discussed this matter. I mean, the matter. I mean, the Karen Reed case Karen Reed case Karen Reed case is probably the most is probably the most is probably the most screwed up case, maybe screwed up case, maybe screwed up case, maybe since the OJ since the OJ since the OJ Simpson case, in Simpson case, in Simpson case, in terms of what you terms of what you terms of what you shouldn't do if shouldn't do if shouldn't do if you're a you're a you're a law enforcement officer law enforcement officer law enforcement officer . But this . But this . But this case really case really case really paints a bad paints a bad paints a bad picture. And interestingly, we picture. And interestingly, we picture. And interestingly, we obviously talked obviously talked obviously talked about Karen Reed, we have about Karen Reed, we have about Karen Reed, we have Farwell, and in between them Farwell, and in between them Farwell, and in between them Lindsey Clancy, not Lindsey Clancy, not Lindsey Clancy, not necessarily saying necessarily saying necessarily saying it was a botched it was a botched it was a botched case, but some of the case, but some of the case, but some of the most high-profile cases in the most high-profile cases in the most high-profile cases in the country in recent country in recent country in recent years have been happening in years have been happening in years have been happening in Massachusetts. And Massachusetts. And Massachusetts. And at least two at least two at least two of the three have been subject to significant of the three have been subject to significant of the three have been subject to significant criticism of the criticism of the law enforcement investigation, which has law enforcement investigation, which has been echoed in both been echoed in both been echoed in both traditional media traditional media traditional media and social and social and social media. media. Yes. And I think it's Yes. And I think it's deserved. Definitely deserved. Definitely deserved. Definitely deserved. And I think that deserved. And I think that deserved. And I think that plays a role in plays a role in plays a role in everything that happens next with everything that happens next with everything that happens next with Lindsay Clancy, because Lindsay Clancy, because Lindsay Clancy, because I think the cops I think the cops I think the cops just went in there, just went in there, just went in there, saw a woman who had saw a woman who had saw a woman who had seemingly seemingly seemingly thrown herself out of a window.

thrown herself out of a window. She is in critical She is in critical condition. you have three condition. you have three condition. you have three dead babies and dead babies and dead babies and they took everything at face value they took everything at face value they took everything at face value , , , missing a lot of missing a lot of missing a lot of forensic forensic forensic evidence and its collection, which evidence and its collection, which evidence and its collection, which I was very critical of, as were I was very critical of, as were I was very critical of, as were others. That doesn't mean others. That doesn't mean others. That doesn't mean it changes the picture of what it changes the picture of what actually happened. But before a actually happened. But before a potential second potential second potential second trial, I think they have a trial, I think they have a trial, I think they have a lot of gaps that lot of gaps that lot of gaps that they can't they can't they can't close. close. close. I think you're right. And I think you're right. And I think you're right. And look, if you are a look, if you are a look, if you are a prosecutor, you know prosecutor, you know prosecutor, you know that the basics of defense work that the basics of defense work are sloppy are sloppy are sloppy investigation, investigation, investigation, hasty conclusions, and an hasty conclusions, and an hasty conclusions, and an attempt to judge attempt to judge attempt to judge law enforcement officers. law enforcement officers. law enforcement officers. Again, Again, Again, going back to the going back to the going back to the OJ OJ OJ Simpson case, right? You know, Simpson case, right? You know, Simpson case, right? You know, Michael Proctor, Karen Michael Proctor, Karen Michael Proctor, Karen Reed, I mean, Reed, I mean, Reed, I mean, this can't be this can't be this can't be allowed to happen. This is a allowed to happen. This is a allowed to happen. This is a murder case. You murder case. You murder case. You have to do everything have to do everything have to do everything right. And these right. And these right. And these law enforcement witnesses law enforcement witnesses , you know, they are simply , you know, they are simply , you know, they are simply blown to pieces by blown to pieces by blown to pieces by good good good defense lawyers in such defense lawyers in such defense lawyers in such cases. In this cases. In this cases. In this particular case, particular case, particular case, this is very this is very this is very problematic. You problematic. You problematic. You need the need the need the feds, the feds, the feds, the U.S. Attorney's Office, to U.S. Attorney's Office, to U.S. Attorney's Office, to take on the take on the law enforcement witnesses in law enforcement witnesses in law enforcement witnesses in this case. This is a this case. This is a this case. This is a problem when problem when problem when the prosecution the prosecution the prosecution tries to cross tries to cross tries to cross -examine -examine -examine them early on to them early on to them early on to reduce the impact of reduce the impact of reduce the impact of potential potential potential defense arguments defense arguments defense arguments at the end. A at the end. A at the end. A huge problem. I mean, huge problem. I mean, huge problem. I mean, I would I would I would just hate it just hate it just hate it if I were handling this case as a if I were handling this case as a if I were handling this case as a prosecutor.

prosecutor. prosecutor. Yes, it's a complete mess. Yes, it's a complete mess. Not only do I find the Not only do I find the trial itself a trial itself a trial itself a mess, given the mess, given the mess, given the criticisms of criticisms of criticisms of the investigation—and we'll the investigation—and we'll the investigation—and we'll touch on what touch on what touch on what appears to be sloppy appears to be sloppy appears to be sloppy work—but work—but work—but the situation itself between the situation itself between the situation itself between the defendants is the defendants is the defendants is incredibly confusing incredibly confusing incredibly confusing and complex. So the and complex. So the and complex. So the prosecution's theory is prosecution's theory is prosecution's theory is that the that the that the pregnant woman pregnant woman pregnant woman was going to reveal was going to reveal was going to reveal the truth about their the truth about their the truth about their relationship, which would not relationship, which would not relationship, which would not only ruin the only ruin the police officer's career, but police officer's career, but could also lead to could also lead to could also lead to charges of charges of charges of sexual sexual sexual assault of a assault of a assault of a minor, which is why minor, which is why minor, which is why you say these you say these you say these charges charges charges involve the murder of a involve the murder of a involve the murder of a witness and a victim. And in witness and a victim. And in witness and a victim. And in this case, the mother is both this case, the mother is both this case, the mother is both . So, . So, . So, the victim and witness in the victim and witness in the victim and witness in this case is 23-year-old this case is 23-year-old this case is 23-year-old Sandra Birchmore. Sandra Birchmore. The accused in The accused in the murder is 38-year-old the murder is 38-year-old the murder is 38-year-old Matthew Farwell, a Matthew Farwell, a Matthew Farwell, a former former former police officer who authorities police officer who authorities police officer who authorities accuse of accuse of accuse of molesting the victim molesting the victim molesting the victim when she was just 12 when she was just 12 when she was just 12 years old. The U.S. Attorney's Office years old. The U.S. Attorney's Office years old. The U.S. Attorney's Office in Massachusetts in Massachusetts in Massachusetts says Matthew was says Matthew was says Matthew was an instructor in the an instructor in the an instructor in the police police police program for young program for young program for young investigators when investigators when investigators when little Sandra was little Sandra was little Sandra was still a cadet. She still a cadet. She still a cadet. She started when she was 12 started when she was 12 , at the , at the , at the Stoughton Police Department. And Stoughton Police Department. And Stoughton Police Department. And here is the video of the here is the video of the here is the video of the day day day Officer Matthew was arrested Officer Matthew was arrested Officer Matthew was arrested . This is former . This is former . This is former U.S. Attorney Joshua U.S. Attorney Joshua U.S. Attorney Joshua Levy. He befriended Levy. He befriended Levy. He befriended Sandra Birchmore, Sandra Birchmore, Sandra Birchmore, connected with her

connected with her connected with her online, went to the library with her online, went to the library with her online, went to the library with her , they , they , they became friends on Facebook, became friends on Facebook, became friends on Facebook, he actually he actually he actually molested her and molested her and molested her and then raped then raped her by having sex with her when he was 27 when he was 27 and she was only 15. Mr. and she was only 15. Mr. and she was only 15. Mr. Farwell continued his Farwell continued his Farwell continued his sexual relationship sexual relationship sexual relationship with Sandra Birchmore until with Sandra Birchmore until with Sandra Birchmore until her death eight her death eight her death eight years later. years later. years later. These are truly These are truly These are truly incredible incredible incredible accusations. I accusations. I accusations. I mean, this mean, this mean, this police officer police officer police officer was working on this was working on this was working on this girl, you know, on girl, you know, on girl, you know, on Facebook, they went to the Facebook, they went to the Facebook, they went to the library, she was library, she was library, she was telling her friends that he was telling her friends that he was telling her friends that he was helping with her helping with her helping with her homework. Yes. And these are homework. Yes. And these are homework. Yes. And these are terrible, simply terrible, simply terrible, simply terrible things. Um, terrible things. Um, terrible things. Um, you know, there was Sandra, you know, there was Sandra, you know, there was Sandra, this young girl, her this young girl, her this young girl, her father obviously father obviously father obviously wasn't around. Her mother wasn't around. Her mother wasn't around. Her mother wanted her to get wanted her to get wanted her to get involved, uh, in, you involved, uh, in, you involved, uh, in, you know, the police and know, the police and know, the police and law law law enforcement, to have enforcement, to have enforcement, to have some kind of future, some kind of some kind of future, some kind of some kind of future, some kind of structure, and instead structure, and instead structure, and instead she was she was she was taken advantage of. The taken advantage of. The jury jury will definitely hate him. And there are will definitely hate him. And there are will definitely hate him. And there are much worse things. I won't go into much worse things. I won't go into much worse things. I won't go into too much too much too much detail, but, you detail, but, you detail, but, you know, obviously he know, obviously he know, obviously he took her virginity, had took her virginity, had rape fantasies, rape fantasies, really horrific really horrific really horrific sexual sexual sexual activity between them, activity between them, activity between them, which is of course illegal given which is of course illegal given which is of course illegal given her age.

her age. So, the question in So, the question in cases like this, do you know what cases like this, do you know what cases like this, do you know what to do if you're the to do if you're the to do if you're the defense? defense? defense? You know, because you You know, because you You know, because you understand that it will be understand that it will be understand that it will be very difficult to very difficult to very difficult to deny the very fact of deny the very fact of deny the very fact of sexual sexual sexual contact. contact. contact. Back to Back to Back to David again, right? There David again, right? There David again, right? There were so many were so many were so many messages between them. And even the messages between them. And even the messages between them. And even the defense's position is defense's position is defense's position is that he that he supposedly came there supposedly came there supposedly came there on the day of her death, and I'm on the day of her death, and I'm on the day of her death, and I'm sure we'll sure we'll sure we'll discuss this further—the mask, the discuss this further—the mask, the discuss this further—the mask, the video, the timeline— video, the timeline— to break off relations with her to break off relations with her to break off relations with her . You know, . You know, . You know, should you, as a should you, as a should you, as a lawyer, just lawyer, just lawyer, just deny everything like deny everything like deny everything like some some some defense attorneys do, right? defense attorneys do, right? defense attorneys do, right? To say, "Listen, To say, "Listen, To say, "Listen, nothing happened. I nothing happened. I nothing happened. I deny the sex. I deny the sex. I deny the sex. I deny the murder." deny the murder." deny the murder." Or admit to having sex, which Or admit to having sex, which Or admit to having sex, which they seem to be they seem to be they seem to be doing. Understanding doing. Understanding doing. Understanding that you have to have that you have to have that you have to have at least some credibility with the at least some credibility with the at least some credibility with the jury, but they will jury, but they will jury, but they will still hate still hate still hate your version. your version. your version. Yes. There were tens of thousands of messages between the victim and the Yes. There were tens of thousands of messages between the victim and the police officer at the time police officer at the time . . Some of them are Some of them are extremely graphic extremely graphic extremely graphic and horrifically and horrifically and horrifically sexual in sexual in sexual in nature. And all of this is nature. And all of this is nature. And all of this is further complicated by the further complicated by the further complicated by the strange relationship strange relationship strange relationship they had.

they had. Obviously, if Obviously, if you look at the supposed you look at the supposed you look at the supposed beginning, at how beginning, at how beginning, at how this relationship was born this relationship was born this relationship was born , can , can , can it be anything it be anything it be anything other than a other than a other than a disturbing, disturbing, disturbing, unhealthy unhealthy unhealthy relationship between two relationship between two relationship between two people? But you'll people? But you'll people? But you'll see that, depending see that, depending see that, depending on how you read these on how you read these on how you read these text text text messages, she's messages, she's messages, she's telling him, "I'll tell you telling him, "I'll tell you telling him, "I'll tell you about us." "I'll tell about us." "I'll tell about us." "I'll tell your wife if your wife if your wife if you don't come to me you don't come to me ." "Come with me to the ." "Come with me to the ." "Come with me to the doctor's appointment." "I doctor's appointment." "I doctor's appointment." "I want your name want your name want your name on the on the on the child's birth certificate." I child's birth certificate." I child's birth certificate." I want you to help want you to help want you to help me financially. So there me financially. So there me financially. So there was a lot of this, was a lot of this, was a lot of this, you know, if you know, if you know, if you look at you look at you look at the dynamics of control the dynamics of control the dynamics of control here, if here, if here, if the allegations by the authorities the allegations by the authorities the allegations by the authorities about the sexual about the sexual about the sexual exploitation of this exploitation of this exploitation of this young woman when young woman when young woman when she was a teenager are she was a teenager are she was a teenager are true, then he had the true, then he had the true, then he had the upper hand at that point upper hand at that point . Now the question is for . Now the question is for . Now the question is for you, Nema, did you, Nema, did you, Nema, did the situation change, and did the situation change, and did the situation change, and did she then become she then become she then become the one who had the power and the one who had the power and the one who had the power and tried tried tried to manipulate it— to manipulate it— without judgment—to without judgment—to without judgment—to get what get what get what she wanted?

she wanted? Of course. And look, Of course. And look, ultimately, I ultimately, I ultimately, I understand, it turned out understand, it turned out understand, it turned out that Farwell wasn't the that Farwell wasn't the that Farwell wasn't the father of the child, but father of the child, but father of the child, but he thought he was, and that's an he thought he was, and that's an he thought he was, and that's an important part of the important part of the important part of the prosecution's theory prosecution's theory . Yeah, I mean, . Yeah, I mean, . Yeah, I mean, we've talked off we've talked off we've talked off camera about these various camera about these various camera about these various horrific murders that horrific murders that horrific murders that we're discussing, but we're discussing, but we're discussing, but another recent another recent another recent parallel—it's Caleb parallel—it's Caleb parallel—it's Caleb Flynn, right? In Flynn, right? In Flynn, right? In Ohio, his mistress is Ohio, his mistress is Ohio, his mistress is suddenly going to suddenly going to suddenly going to expose him, right? This puts expose him, right? This puts expose him, right? This puts pressure on him pressure on him pressure on him to kill to kill to kill his wife, right? his wife, right? his wife, right? Obviously, in this Obviously, in this Obviously, in this particular case, particular case, particular case, it's about him it's about him it's about him killing his mistress, but in killing his mistress, but in killing his mistress, but in such matters, time is of the such matters, time is of the such matters, time is of the essence. And you know, essence. And you know, essence. And you know, one thing we've one thing we've one thing we've talked about in any talked about in any talked about in any of these cases is those of these cases is those of these cases is those messages, right? messages, right? This digital trail This digital trail that simply shows the that simply shows the that simply shows the additional pressure additional pressure additional pressure being placed on Farwell. being placed on Farwell. You know, he's married , has children, and , has children, and , has children, and he's about to be exposed. There was he's about to be exposed. There was he's about to be exposed. There was a call to his a call to his a call to his office, apparently from a office, apparently from a office, apparently from a victim victim trying to trying to trying to pressure him to pressure him to pressure him to take a more active take a more active take a more active role in her life and the role in her life and the role in her life and the life of his unborn life of his unborn life of his unborn child, and that's a strong child, and that's a strong child, and that's a strong motive to make motive to make motive to make someone disappear. I do someone disappear. I do someone disappear. I do n't mean to n't mean to n't mean to belittle this, of course, but belittle this, of course, but belittle this, of course, but motive is not an element of the motive is not an element of the motive is not an element of the crime, but crime, but crime, but a jury will want a jury will want a jury will want to know why someone to know why someone to know why someone would kill another person and would kill another person and would kill another person and stage it as a stage it as a stage it as a suicide.

suicide. suicide. Oh, this is so terrible. And Oh, this is so terrible. And Oh, this is so terrible. And that call came that call came that call came into the station into the station into the station about two about two about two weeks before weeks before weeks before Sandra's death. And in all the Sandra's death. And in all the Sandra's death. And in all the court documents, court documents, court documents, the authorities paint a picture of the authorities paint a picture of the authorities paint a picture of how how how angry he was. Matthew was angry he was. Matthew was angry he was. Matthew was furious when furious when furious when the dispatcher told the dispatcher told the dispatcher told him that this call had come him that this call had come him that this call had come in in in reporting that reporting that reporting that he was cheating on his he was cheating on his he was cheating on his wife. And then he wife. And then he wife. And then he breaks down on Sandra. breaks down on Sandra. And we will read this And we will read this text for you a little text for you a little text for you a little later. But prosecutors later. But prosecutors later. But prosecutors say it has nothing to say it has nothing to say it has nothing to do with what was do with what was do with what was going on—the pressure going on—the pressure going on—the pressure she put on him she put on him she put on him and then this and then this and then this incident, you know, incident, you know, incident, you know, just to give him a just to give him a just to give him a taste of what could taste of what could taste of what could happen. I'm sorry, the happen. I'm sorry, the happen. I'm sorry, the truth. truth. truth. Yes. Yes. Yes. This, in fact, This, in fact, This, in fact, changed a lot. And in these changed a lot. And in these changed a lot. And in these text text text messages, it's interesting messages, it's interesting how Sandra, you know, is how Sandra, you know, is how Sandra, you know, is constantly sharing with her constantly sharing with her constantly sharing with her friends what's friends what's friends what's going on. And she going on. And she going on. And she tells the story of how, tells the story of how, tells the story of how, right before his death, right before his death, right before his death, he changed his mind he changed his mind . Now he wants the . Now he wants the . Now he wants the key to her key to her key to her apartment.

apartment. apartment. Um, she mentions this in Um, she mentions this in Um, she mentions this in one of her one of her one of her messages. Oh, that messages. Oh, that messages. Oh, that was so strange. He was so strange. He was so strange. He looked through the closet. He looked through the closet. He looked through the closet. He examined the door. He examined the door. He examined the door. He looked around the looked around the looked around the bathroom and stared at the bathroom and stared at the bathroom and stared at the door. How was she found door. How was she found door. How was she found dead? She was found with a dead? She was found with a travel bag strap travel bag strap wrapped around wrapped around wrapped around her neck and tied her neck and tied her neck and tied to a closet doorknob to a closet doorknob . She was in a sitting . She was in a sitting . She was in a sitting position, position, position, leaning against the edge of leaning against the edge of leaning against the edge of the door. So prosecutors the door. So prosecutors the door. So prosecutors say that's exactly what he say that's exactly what he say that's exactly what he did. That's what he did. That's what he did. That's what he studied. studied. studied. Yes. And I think that Yes. And I think that Yes. And I think that will be key will be key will be key evidence in this case. evidence in this case. evidence in this case. Um, of course, there's plenty of Um, of course, there's plenty of Um, of course, there's plenty of evidence of their evidence of their evidence of their relationship. Um, relationship. Um, relationship. Um, apparently there apparently there apparently there was sexual intercourse shortly before her death was sexual intercourse shortly before her death was sexual intercourse shortly before her death . So, this is . So, this is obviously quite obviously quite obviously quite problematic. And you're problematic. And you're problematic. And you're right, you know, he's essentially right, you know, he's essentially trapping her or trapping her or misleading her or calming misleading her or calming misleading her or calming her down so he can kill her later.

her down so he can kill her later. her down so he can kill her later. Now the Now the Now the defense, of course, defense, of course, defense, of course, is arguing that, you know, is arguing that, you know, is arguing that, you know, she had she had she had mental health issues, mental health issues, mental health issues, she was emotional and she was emotional and , you know, , you know, , you know, suicidal. But I think it's going to be suicidal. But I think it's going to be suicidal. But I think it's going to be difficult, because difficult, because difficult, because this evidence, these this evidence, these this evidence, these text text text messages with both him and, you messages with both him and, you know, her know, her know, her friends, show friends, show friends, show that she was really looking forward that she was really looking forward that she was really looking forward to having this to having this to having this baby, and, you know, baby, and, you know, baby, and, you know, she was in that she was in that she was in that "nesting" state "nesting" state "nesting" state before the baby arrived. before the baby arrived. before the baby arrived. She was completely She was completely She was completely absorbed in it. I absorbed in it. I absorbed in it. I think it will be think it will be think it will be very difficult for the defense to prove this very difficult for the defense to prove this . I think this is . I think this is . I think this is their only argument that their only argument that their only argument that she really committed she really committed she really committed suicide. But you're suicide. But you're suicide. But you're right, the fact that right, the fact that right, the fact that he went in and essentially he went in and essentially he went in and essentially scouted the place. He scouted the place. He scouted the place. He came in, you know, came in, you know, came in, you know, literally a literally a literally a few minutes after few minutes after few minutes after her last her last her last message. I think message. I think message. I think it was a few minutes after it was a few minutes after it was a few minutes after 4. He was there for half an 4. He was there for half an 4. He was there for half an hour. He comes in wearing a hour. He comes in wearing a hour. He comes in wearing a mask. And I think mask. And I think mask. And I think one of the interesting things one of the interesting things one of the interesting things that we'll want to that we'll want to that we'll want to talk about is that there talk about is that there were reportedly other were reportedly other extramarital affairs. And extramarital affairs. And extramarital affairs. And the defense claims that the defense claims that the defense claims that he supposedly came in wearing a he supposedly came in wearing a he supposedly came in wearing a mask because he wanted to mask because he wanted to mask because he wanted to hide his identity hide his identity hide his identity due to an extramarital due to an extramarital due to an extramarital affair, but didn't the affair, but didn't the affair, but didn't the defense itself open defense itself open defense itself open the door to these other the door to these other the door to these other relationships? Because now relationships? Because now relationships? Because now they're asking, "Well, they're asking, "Well, they're asking, "Well, when you met when you met when you met other women that you other women that you other women that you had sex with besides your had sex with besides your had sex with besides your wife, did you always wife, did you always wife, did you always wear a mask?" So, uh wear a mask?" So, uh , I don't know.

, I don't know. , I don't know. And the hood was And the hood was And the hood was pulled up. pulled up. pulled up. The hood was on The hood was on The hood was on in that video when in that video when in that video when he entered. And he doesn't he entered. And he doesn't he entered. And he doesn't stay there stay there stay there long. And I think long. And I think long. And I think part of the initial part of the initial part of the initial problem with this problem with this problem with this investigation was that investigation was that investigation was that he he he lied right away. When investigators lied right away. When investigators lied right away. When investigators came to him came to him came to him after she was after she was after she was found dead, he found dead, he found dead, he lied about the nature of lied about the nature of lied about the nature of their relationship. He had their relationship. He had their relationship. He had already deleted all his already deleted all his already deleted all his text text text messages, but she hadn't messages, but she hadn't . And, as you know, . And, as you know, . And, as you know, they are never they are never they are never really really really deleted. Um, it's deleted. Um, it's deleted. Um, it's just, it just, it just, it really annoys me. I...this is really annoys me. I...this is really annoys me. I...this is my personal opinion. I my personal opinion. I my personal opinion. I believe he believe he believe he received very received very received very special treatment special treatment special treatment from the state from the state from the state police investigators. Now Matthew, police investigators. Now Matthew, police investigators. Now Matthew, of course, of course, of course, denies all of this. He says he is denies all of this. He says he is denies all of this. He says he is innocent. Uh, innocent. Uh, innocent. Uh, the defense says: yes, he the defense says: yes, he the defense says: yes, he could have been a worthless could have been a worthless could have been a worthless man. Yes, he man. Yes, he man. Yes, he definitely cheated on his definitely cheated on his definitely cheated on his wife, but he didn't wife, but he didn't wife, but he didn't kill her, and it was kill her, and it was kill her, and it was n't his child. So, n't his child. So, n't his child. So, you know, they can, you know, they can, you know, they can, even if he could have even if he could have even if he could have believed it, they believed it, they believed it, they can make a can make a can make a strong argument and strong argument and strong argument and say, "But it was say, "But it was say, "But it was n't his child." So, I n't his child." So, I n't his child." So, I They thought it was a They thought it was a They thought it was a child who child who child who Yes. He thought it was, Yes. He thought it was, Yes. He thought it was, and she told him it was and she told him it was and she told him it was his child, right his child, right ?

? ? Yes. She asked Yes. She asked Yes. She asked him to help her get him to help her get him to help her get pregnant. pregnant. pregnant. They had so many They had so many They had so many text text text messages where she messages where she messages where she was asking him and was asking him and was asking him and letting him know she was letting him know she was letting him know she was ovulating and saying, " ovulating and saying, " I need you to I need you to I need you to come because I want come because I want come because I want you to make me a you to make me a you to make me a baby." We are baby." We are baby." We are retelling it here in our own retelling it here in our own retelling it here in our own words. And he words. And he words. And he came, and was also came, and was also came, and was also criticized criticized criticized by investigators for having by investigators for having by investigators for having this relationship while on this relationship while on this relationship while on duty. duty. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm at work, but I'll Yes. I'm at work, but I'll Yes. I'm at work, but I'll drop by. drop by. drop by. Yes. Yes. Yes. What kind of cop is this? What kind of cop is this? What kind of cop is this? Yes. No, that's bad. As Yes. No, that's bad. As Yes. No, that's bad. As you said, special you said, special you said, special treatment, uh, treatment, uh, treatment, uh, investigation, and it's investigation, and it's investigation, and it's interesting that the defense interesting that the defense interesting that the defense seems to point to the seems to point to the seems to point to the victim's family as the ones who are victim's family as the ones who are victim's family as the ones who are actually pushing actually pushing actually pushing this narrative and applying this narrative and applying this narrative and applying political pressure. Um, political pressure. Um, political pressure. Um, but I think ultimately but I think ultimately but I think ultimately what will come out, if and what will come out, if and what will come out, if and when Farwell when Farwell when Farwell is found guilty, is that it was is found guilty, is that it was law enforcement that law enforcement that turned a blind eye to the actions of turned a blind eye to the actions of turned a blind eye to the actions of one of their own. And, um, one of their own. And, um, one of their own. And, um, this is exactly the kind of case this is exactly the kind of case this is exactly the kind of case where heads should roll where heads should roll where heads should roll , because, , because, , because, you know, when the you know, when the you know, when the police...I police...I police...I mean, any mean, any mean, any murder or any murder or any murder or any victim should be victim should be victim should be investigated. Because that's a investigated. Because that's a investigated. Because that's a breach of public breach of public breach of public trust, as well as a trust, as well as a trust, as well as a disrespect for this disrespect for this disrespect for this young woman, young woman, young woman, right? And the fact that the right? And the fact that the right? And the fact that the case was handled this way case was handled this way case was handled this way means, in my opinion, means, in my opinion, means, in my opinion, that there are many people to that there are many people to that there are many people to blame here.

blame here. blame here. Oh, definitely. So, Oh, definitely. So, Oh, definitely. So, she was doing the she was doing the she was doing the laundry. Um, you know, there was a laundry. Um, you know, there was a laundry. Um, you know, there was a storm raging there, storm raging there, storm raging there, so she was working as a so she was working as a so she was working as a school aide and school aide and school aide and applying applying applying to to to medical schools at the same time. She medical schools at the same time. She medical schools at the same time. She wanted to change her wanted to change her wanted to change her profession. So, the profession. So, the profession. So, the most interesting thing about that most interesting thing about that most interesting thing about that evening was that she was evening was that she was evening was that she was very busy— very busy— very busy— texting, texting, texting, calling friends. calling friends. She was in the process of She was in the process of washing. And this is what washing. And this is what washing. And this is what her family said. her family said. her family said. Like, how could the police Like, how could the police Like, how could the police not not not notice this? One notice this? One notice this? One set of laundry was set of laundry was set of laundry was in the dryer, the other in the in the dryer, the other in the in the dryer, the other in the washing machine. Would washing machine. Would washing machine. Would she do that? To she do that? To stop at this moment and stop at this moment and commit suicide commit suicide . . . Hmm, you never Hmm, you never Hmm, you never know what's on know what's on know what's on someone's mind. But someone's mind. But someone's mind. But they also didn't they also didn't they also didn't notice that notice that notice that her her her necklace, which she necklace, which she necklace, which she always wore, was found, and it always wore, was found, and it always wore, was found, and it was torn— was torn— just torn, just torn, just torn, broken. And the family broken. And the family broken. And the family felt: doesn't this felt: doesn't this felt: doesn't this indicate a struggle, indicate a struggle, indicate a struggle, as opposed to as opposed to as opposed to her her her tearing it herself, trying tearing it herself, trying tearing it herself, trying to tie a noose around her to tie a noose around her to tie a noose around her neck? And here's something else. This neck? And here's something else. This neck? And here's something else. This impressed me even impressed me even impressed me even more than the whole more than the whole more than the whole laundry thing.

laundry thing. She was preparing She was preparing to find people to to find people to to find people to care for her care for her care for her cats while she cats while she cats while she was in the hospital giving was in the hospital giving was in the hospital giving birth. She was birth. She was birth. She was only 10 weeks only 10 weeks only 10 weeks pregnant, expecting a pregnant, expecting a pregnant, expecting a boy. And I boy. And I boy. And I found it interesting. Here found it interesting. Here found it interesting. Here she is, thoughtfully she is, thoughtfully she is, thoughtfully worrying about her worrying about her worrying about her cats. But when she cats. But when she cats. But when she allegedly committed allegedly committed allegedly committed suicide, according to a suicide, according to a suicide, according to a preliminary preliminary preliminary investigation, she did investigation, she did investigation, she did not take care of the cats. not take care of the cats. In fact, she was found In fact, she was found 3 days later, and the cats were already 3 days later, and the cats were already 3 days later, and the cats were already starving. starving. Yes. As you said, Yes. As you said, this doesn't fit with this doesn't fit with this doesn't fit with someone who is someone who is someone who is about to about to about to die, does it? die, does it? die, does it? Obviously, no one Obviously, no one Obviously, no one likes to do laundry, likes to do laundry, likes to do laundry, especially during a especially during a especially during a storm, you know, storm, you know, storm, you know, one of those one of those one of those Boston blizzards Boston blizzards that I've been experiencing that I've been experiencing that I've been experiencing for for for years. Thank God years. Thank God years. Thank God I'm in California now I'm in California now I'm in California now where it's 80 degrees where it's 80 degrees where it's 80 degrees Fahrenheit. But Fahrenheit. But Fahrenheit. But no, you're right. That is, no, you're right. That is, no, you're right. That is, none of this is none of this is none of this is consistent. I think consistent. I think consistent. I think the family makes the family makes the family makes valid arguments. valid arguments. valid arguments. Obviously, the prosecution's argument Obviously, the prosecution's argument is that she was is that she was strangled, and much evidence will be strangled, and much evidence will be strangled, and much evidence will be presented presented presented in support of in support of in support of this. Yes. If someone this. Yes. If someone this. Yes. If someone plans their life plans their life plans their life 7-8 months ahead, 7-8 months ahead, 7-8 months ahead, when they are going to when they are going to when they are going to give birth and give birth and give birth and worry about their worry about their worry about their cats, etc. This is not cats, etc. This is not cats, etc. This is not consistent with someone who consistent with someone who consistent with someone who has suicidal has suicidal has suicidal tendencies. Now, tendencies. Now, tendencies. Now, apparently, the apparently, the forensic expert forensic expert forensic expert immediately ruled it a immediately ruled it a immediately ruled it a suicide.

suicide. suicide. I hate it when they I hate it when they I hate it when they do that, you know, do that, you know, do that, you know, because then all of a sudden, because then all of a sudden, because then all of a sudden, you know, and now it's you know, and now it's you know, and now it's changed to " changed to " undefined," undefined," undefined," you know? But you know? But you know? But still, it's all still, it's all still, it's all cross- cross- cross- examination material because examination material because examination material because the medical the medical the medical examiner immediately examiner immediately examiner immediately comes to comes to comes to a conclusion about a conclusion about a conclusion about the cause and manner of the cause and manner of the cause and manner of death that potentially death that potentially death that potentially contradicts the facts, and contradicts the facts, and contradicts the facts, and they inadvertently they inadvertently they inadvertently become a become a become a defense witness when you do defense witness when you do defense witness when you do n't n't n't want them to be. Mhm. And on want them to be. Mhm. And on want them to be. Mhm. And on top of that, top of that, top of that, criticisms criticisms criticisms of the investigation of the investigation of the investigation include that include that include that the officers who the officers who the officers who conducted it and the conducted it and the conducted it and the state police are really state police are really state police are really taking the taking the taking the brunt. Um, brunt. Um, brunt. Um, they didn't talk to the they didn't talk to the they didn't talk to the neighbors who lived neighbors who lived neighbors who lived behind the wall with her. Why behind the wall with her. Why behind the wall with her. Why if you find if you find if you find someone dead? First someone dead? First someone dead? First of all, rule number of all, rule number of all, rule number one in a one in a one in a homicide investigation or a homicide investigation or a homicide investigation or a death investigation death investigation is you assume it's a is you assume it's a is you assume it's a potential potential potential homicide until homicide until homicide until proven otherwise. proven otherwise. And here they started from the And here they started from the other side. It other side. It other side. It looks like a woman, looks like a woman, looks like a woman, you know, taking her own you know, taking her own you know, taking her own life instead of life instead of life instead of considering considering considering the possibility that the possibility that the possibility that it was staged it was staged it was staged and that it was actually and that it was actually and that it was actually murder. So, murder. So, murder. So, not only did they not interview the not only did they not interview the not only did they not interview the witnesses they should have, witnesses they should have, witnesses they should have, apparently, when they apparently, when they apparently, when they went to interview went to interview went to interview Matthew, who Matthew, who Matthew, who was still a was still a was still a police officer at the time, Nian, I do police officer at the time, Nian, I do police officer at the time, Nian, I do n't understand that. They n't understand that. They n't understand that. They were talking to him somewhere were talking to him somewhere were talking to him somewhere in the school parking lot or in the school parking lot or in the school parking lot or something. This was not something. This was not something. This was not recorded. They didn't recorded. They didn't recorded. They didn't ask for any DNA.

ask for any DNA. ask for any DNA. He initially He initially He initially denied the relationship denied the relationship . I wonder if this is how you . I wonder if this is how you . I wonder if this is how you conduct an conduct an conduct an investigation? investigation? investigation? No, that's not how you No, that's not how you No, that's not how you conduct an conduct an conduct an investigation. And that investigation. And that investigation. And that brings us back to what brings us back to what brings us back to what we were talking about. we were talking about. we were talking about. Farma was treated Farma was treated Farma was treated differently because he differently because he differently because he was a police officer. And was a police officer. And was a police officer. And that's not how that's not how that's not how things should be done. This is things should be done. This is things should be done. This is inappropriate. This is inappropriate. This is inappropriate. This is problematic. This is the problematic. This is the problematic. This is the reason why we reason why we reason why we are dealing with this are dealing with this are dealing with this matter in the matter in the matter in the federal system federal system federal system after many years. after many years. after many years. So, I have to give So, I have to give So, I have to give credit, uh, we were very credit, uh, we were very credit, uh, we were very critical of the critical of the critical of the state police. I have to give state police. I have to give state police. I have to give credit to the FBI and credit to the FBI and credit to the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the U.S. Attorney's Office for taking on this taking on this taking on this case, which, you know, was case, which, you know, was case, which, you know, was really really really botched in a lot of ways by their botched in a lot of ways by their botched in a lot of ways by their local counterparts. So, local counterparts. So, local counterparts. So, um, of course I take my um, of course I take my um, of course I take my hat off to them. hat off to them. hat off to them. Let's see if Let's see if Let's see if they can bring they can bring they can bring this case to a close and this case to a close and this case to a close and send this send this send this officer, a former officer, a former officer, a former officer, to officer, to officer, to federal prison federal prison federal prison for life, because he for life, because he for life, because he truly truly truly deserves it. But no, you are deserves it. But no, you are deserves it. But no, you are absolutely right. Um, absolutely right. Um, absolutely right. Um, that's just problematic.

that's just problematic. that's just problematic. This is not how an This is not how an This is not how an investigation is conducted. You investigation is conducted. You investigation is conducted. You question every question every question every witness, right? witness, right? witness, right? Yes. But it does Yes. But it does Yes. But it does n't end there, n't end there, n't end there, because according to what because according to what because according to what was presented in was presented in was presented in court, prosecutors court, prosecutors court, prosecutors say that say that say that state police not only state police not only state police not only informally informally informally communicated with Matthew, the communicated with Matthew, the communicated with Matthew, the lover in this case lover in this case , I don't know, like with an , I don't know, like with an , I don't know, like with an adult. I mean, what adult. I mean, what adult. I mean, what he he he did before, if did before, if did before, if he did it, was a he did it, was a he did it, was a crime. Crime crime. Crime crime. Crime against a young woman. against a young woman. against a young woman. OK. This is where things OK. This is where things OK. This is where things get very confusing. get very confusing. get very confusing. So, Matthew has a So, Matthew has a twin brother who is also a twin brother who is also a twin brother who is also a police officer. OK. police officer. OK. police officer. OK. OK. Now, this in OK. Now, this in OK. Now, this in itself raises itself raises itself raises huge doubts huge doubts huge doubts about who was about who was about who was actually seen in the actually seen in the surveillance video. Do you surveillance video. Do you understand what I mean? I understand what I mean? I understand what I mean? I don't blame him don't blame him don't blame him for anything, but it makes for anything, but it makes for anything, but it makes everything terribly everything terribly everything terribly difficult. And also DNA, difficult. And also DNA, difficult. And also DNA, when there is an identical when there is an identical when there is an identical twin. There is a lot going on here twin. There is a lot going on here . So, . So, according to Boston Magazine according to Boston Magazine , which cites , which cites , which cites an order to an order to an order to revoke revoke revoke the certification of the the certification of the twin brother, William twin brother, William twin brother, William Farwell, as well as a Farwell, as well as a Farwell, as well as a civil lawsuit civil lawsuit civil lawsuit filed against the twin brother by filed against the twin brother by Sandra's aunt. Sandra's aunt is her mother's twin her mother's twin . OK. There . OK. There . OK. There seem to be too many seem to be too many seem to be too many twins here. Um, twins here. Um, but keep an eye on the opinion,

but keep an eye on the opinion, because I think it's very because I think it's very because I think it's very important. So, in this important. So, in this important. So, in this documentation and in documentation and in documentation and in this lawsuit against the this lawsuit against the this lawsuit against the twin brother, twin brother, twin brother, William, they William, they William, they allege that he allege that he allege that he had sexual had sexual had sexual contact with Sandra in the contact with Sandra in the contact with Sandra in the parking lot of her parking lot of her parking lot of her house 22 days before she was house 22 days before she was house 22 days before she was murdered. murdered. Oho. it. He denies Oho. it. He denies any any any wrongdoing. He wrongdoing. He wrongdoing. He denies any denies any denies any wrongdoing. He is wrongdoing. He is wrongdoing. He is not involved in not involved in not involved in any crime here. But any crime here. But any crime here. But he may well be he may well be he may well be called as a witness for the called as a witness for the called as a witness for the prosecution. But prosecution. But prosecution. But wait, that's not wait, that's not wait, that's not all. That's not all. all. That's not all. According to WCVB-TV in According to WCVB-TV in Boston, William, Boston, William, Boston, William, a twin, resigned from the a twin, resigned from the Stoughton Police Department, where Stoughton Police Department, where his brother worked, in August 2022 his brother worked, in August 2022 his brother worked, in August 2022 after an after an after an internal internal internal investigation into investigation into investigation into his his his dismissal from the police force. dismissal from the police force.

William Farwell William Farwell pleaded not guilty to any pleaded not guilty to any pleaded not guilty to any charges. charges. Wait, here's Wait, here's another sensation. another sensation. Federal prosecutors Federal prosecutors say that as part of the say that as part of the say that as part of the initial initial state police investigation into state police investigation into Sandra's death. Sandra's death. The investigator in this case The investigator in this case went to visit the went to visit the went to visit the twin brother to twin brother to twin brother to talk to him talk to him talk to him casually. Where? In casually. Where? In casually. Where? In the parking lot. Why is he the parking lot. Why is he the parking lot. Why is he talking? Why is he talking? Why is he talking? Why is he talking to his talking to his twin brother? What is twin brother? What is twin brother? What is going on here? going on here? I can't answer that I can't answer that , Anna. Again , Anna. Again , Anna. Again , one mistake after , one mistake after , one mistake after another. another. The craziest thing is— and this would look like and this would look like and this would look like one of those one of those one of those Lifetime movies where at the Lifetime movies where at the Lifetime movies where at the last minute last minute last minute the defense points to the the defense points to the the defense points to the twin brother and says twin brother and says he's the real killer, not suicide. But yeah, I But yeah, I mean, this is obviously a mean, this is obviously a mean, this is obviously a very "tight" very "tight" very "tight" relatively small relatively small relatively small police police police station where things are station where things are station where things are just just just not done right. And that's the not done right. And that's the not done right. And that's the whole problem.

whole problem. whole problem. When When When an allegation arises or an allegation arises or an allegation arises or even a witness comes forward even a witness comes forward even a witness comes forward , the entire department really , the entire department really , the entire department really needs to be needs to be needs to be suspended suspended suspended . It is worth . It is worth . It is worth engaging an independent engaging an independent engaging an independent investigative agency to investigative agency to investigative agency to avoid such avoid such avoid such problems. And again problems. And again problems. And again , especially when , especially when , especially when dealing with dealing with dealing with law law law enforcement, this is enforcement, this is enforcement, this is not the way to not the way to not the way to work at all. I work at all. I work at all. I mean, someday mean, someday mean, someday Tufts, Harvard, or Tufts, Harvard, or Tufts, Harvard, or Boston Boston Boston University University University will definitely do a will definitely do a will definitely do a case case case study on what study on what study on what not to do. This is not to do. This is not to do. This is exactly what this case is about. exactly what this case is about. exactly what this case is about. Oh, I believe you. So, Oh, I believe you. So, Oh, I believe you. So, if this whole thing isn't if this whole thing isn't if this whole thing isn't disgusting enough disgusting enough disgusting enough , there's more. , there's more. Okay, Matthew allegedly Okay, Matthew allegedly began sexually began sexually began sexually harassing Sandra a harassing Sandra a harassing Sandra a month before their month before their month before their wedding. This is so that wedding. This is so that wedding. This is so that you understand you understand you understand the background of what is the background of what is the background of what is happening and the happening and the happening and the main principles of main principles of main principles of this matter. this matter. Prosecutors Prosecutors allege he allege he allege he killed Sandra just killed Sandra just killed Sandra just before his before his before his wife gave birth to their wife gave birth to their wife gave birth to their third child. There third child. There are actually some are actually some theories in the court files, and it's all theories in the court files, and it's all theories in the court files, and it's all based on her based on her based on her text text text messages to messages to messages to him. She him. She him. She finds out that he is finds out that he is finds out that he is actually expecting a actually expecting a actually expecting a third child, and that's when third child, and that's when third child, and that's when she she she wanted a baby too and wanted a baby too and wanted a baby too and started pressuring started pressuring started pressuring him to him to him to help her help her help her get pregnant.

get pregnant. get pregnant. Yes, yes, I believe that. I Yes, yes, I believe that. I Yes, yes, I believe that. I remember that the remember that the remember that the sexual relationship sexual relationship sexual relationship began just before began just before began just before his marriage, and his marriage, and his marriage, and apparently his apparently his apparently his wife doesn't seem to know about it wife doesn't seem to know about it wife doesn't seem to know about it . Then he has . Then he has . Then he has two two two children. I mean, children. I mean, children. I mean, he actually has he actually has he actually has every reason in the world every reason in the world every reason in the world to get rid of this to get rid of this to get rid of this problem because it will problem because it will problem because it will ruin his career ruin his career . She will destroy his . She will destroy his . She will destroy his family. His children family. His children family. His children will sincerely will sincerely will sincerely hate him. So, there's hate him. So, there's hate him. So, there's all the evidence of motive you all the evidence of motive you all the evidence of motive you could could could want, and it's all want, and it's all want, and it's all documented— documented— very powerful very powerful very powerful material for the state. I material for the state. I material for the state. I said "state" said "state" said "state" instead of " instead of " instead of " United States government." United States government." United States government." United United United States Government. I have to States Government. I have to States Government. I have to correct myself. I'm used correct myself. I'm used correct myself. I'm used to those things in to those things in to those things in Massachusetts. This is the Massachusetts. This is the Massachusetts. This is the United States of United States of United States of America. America. America. Yes. Because there are Yes. Because there are Yes. Because there are no cameras in the courtroom, no cameras in the courtroom, no cameras in the courtroom, many Boston many Boston many Boston TV stations keep TV stations keep TV stations keep their reporters there, their reporters there, their reporters there, as do other news as do other news as do other news organizations, who organizations, who organizations, who then hold then hold then hold briefings and briefings and briefings and discussions. I discussions. I discussions. I found it very interesting found it very interesting found it very interesting that the people who that the people who that the people who cover this cover this cover this process for several process for several process for several TV channels... They TV channels... They TV channels... They said how said how said how radical it is, radical it is, radical it is, how different an how different an how different an experience it is—to try a experience it is—to try a experience it is—to try a murder case in murder case in murder case in federal court.

federal court. federal court. Even the backstage meetings are Even the backstage meetings are different. Everything different. Everything else. Everything else. Everything else. Everything feels different. feels different. feels different. Um, federal court— Um, federal court— that's pretty serious. that's pretty serious. that's pretty serious. Yes, very seriously. And, Yes, very seriously. And, Yes, very seriously. And, of course, excellent. of course, excellent. of course, excellent. Listen, we're in Listen, we're in Listen, we're in California now, and it's the California now, and it's the California now, and it's the same here. State court, same here. State court, same here. State court, cameras, fast pace, cameras, fast pace, cameras, fast pace, relaxed atmosphere; relaxed atmosphere; relaxed atmosphere; federal court. federal court. Of course, no cameras Of course, no cameras in any state in the in any state in the in any state in the country, and everything is very country, and everything is very country, and everything is very formal, right? Everything is formal, right? Everything is formal, right? Everything is in writing, the meetings—these are in writing, the meetings—these are federal judges—they are a federal judges—they are a completely different breed of completely different breed of completely different breed of people. But, as you people. But, as you people. But, as you said, the vast said, the vast said, the vast majority of them have majority of them have majority of them have never handled never handled never handled murder cases. This is murder cases. This is murder cases. This is simply an extremely simply an extremely simply an extremely rare case—a rare case—a direct accusation of direct accusation of direct accusation of murder. Of course, murder. Of course, murder. Of course, sometimes there are cases of sometimes there are cases of sometimes there are cases of cartels, street cartels, street cartels, street gangs, mafia, you know, gangs, mafia, you know, gangs, mafia, you know, murders are part of murders are part of murders are part of other federal other federal other federal charges of racketeering charges of racketeering charges of racketeering or other crimes. or other crimes. But outright murder is very, very is very, very is very, very unusual. That's why, unusual. That's why, unusual. That's why, for example, the case of for example, the case of for example, the case of Louis Gimanion or Louis Gimanion or Louis Gimanion or Derek Chauvin in the Derek Chauvin in the Derek Chauvin in the George George George Floyd case, or other Floyd case, or other Floyd case, or other high-profile high-profile high-profile murder cases that have happened murder cases that have happened murder cases that have happened recently—they are very, recently—they are very, recently—they are very, very rare.

very rare. very rare. There is usually some There is usually some There is usually some component of component of component of civil rights violation, civil rights violation, civil rights violation, which of course should which of course should which of course should be there here as well. be there here as well. So let's So let's go back to go back to go back to the beginning to the beginning to the beginning to try to understand try to understand how things got to how things got to how things got to this point, and we this point, and we this point, and we need to be clear. need to be clear. You know, it's the You know, it's the federal authorities who federal authorities who federal authorities who are making this are making this are making this allegation of allegation of allegation of sexual sexual sexual exploitation of exploitation of exploitation of a minor, and a minor, and a minor, and it's supposedly it's supposedly it's supposedly confirmed by confirmed by confirmed by friends and family from friends and family from friends and family from her circle who her circle who her circle who knew about it long before knew about it long before knew about it long before her death. her death. So, you know, we want So, you know, we want to clarify. Um, to clarify. Um, you know, and that's not what you know, and that's not what he's he's he's accused of either. So we have to accused of either. So we have to accused of either. So we have to be very be very be very careful with these careful with these careful with these accusations. accusations. accusations. Let's Let's Let's go back to go back to go back to the beginning again. That's all, the beginning again. That's all, the beginning again. That's all, according to according to according to federal data, federal data, federal data, he abused he abused he abused her and continued to do so her and continued to do so her and continued to do so until her until her until her death. Then they... death. Then they... then she became an then she became an then she became an adult. I can't adult. I can't adult. I can't say whether say whether say whether she she she had a relationship with him voluntarily, had a relationship with him voluntarily, had a relationship with him voluntarily, because I think for because I think for because I think for this poor this poor this poor young woman, if young woman, if young woman, if it's true, everything was it's true, everything was it's true, everything was distorted. How does she distorted. How does she distorted. How does she know what a know what a know what a relationship is? How does she relationship is? How does she relationship is? How does she know what love is?

know what love is? know what love is? I...I don't know. I... I...I don't know. I... I...I don't know. I... I agree. First of all, I agree. First of all, I agree. First of all, we obviously know we obviously know we obviously know that a 15-year-old that a 15-year-old that a 15-year-old cannot give consent, but cannot give consent, but cannot give consent, but you are right. As she you are right. As she you are right. As she becomes an adult, she is becomes an adult, she is becomes an adult, she is already involved in a already involved in a already involved in a relationship with this relationship with this relationship with this much older and, much older and, much older and, frankly, frankly, frankly, much stronger much stronger much stronger controlling controlling controlling personality type. Isn't that right personality type. Isn't that right personality type. Isn't that right ? He is a policeman ? He is a policeman . I'm sure he . I'm sure he . I'm sure he used not used not used not only his age but also only his age but also only his age but also his position to his position to his position to control her. control her. control her. Listen, maybe over Listen, maybe over Listen, maybe over time she became time she became time she became more confident and started more confident and started more confident and started making demands. But making demands. But making demands. But you know, of course. I you know, of course. I you know, of course. I think it's a perfectly think it's a perfectly think it's a perfectly valid argument that valid argument that valid argument that even when she even when she even when she could have consented, he could have consented, he could have consented, he was still the was still the was still the dominant figure in dominant figure in dominant figure in their relationship. That's their relationship. That's their relationship. That's quite right. quite right. quite right. And the difference in height. And the difference in height. And the difference in height. Of course. Of course. Of course. Height difference. Height difference. Height difference. His height is 193 cm. Her His height is 193 cm. Her His height is 193 cm. Her height was about 147 height was about 147 height was about 147 cm. cm. cm. Yes. Physically too. So Yes. Physically too. So , there are physical, , there are physical, , there are physical, emotional, emotional, emotional, psychological psychological psychological aspects. I aspects. I aspects. I mean, absolutely. And you are mean, absolutely. And you are mean, absolutely. And you are 100% right about 100% right about 100% right about that.

that. So, um, you know, So, um, you know, Sandra was supportive of Sandra was supportive of Sandra was supportive of this relationship, as was this relationship, as was this relationship, as was Matthew. And we may Matthew. And we may Matthew. And we may never understand never understand never understand the dynamics of the relationship the dynamics of the relationship the dynamics of the relationship when Sandra was an when Sandra was an when Sandra was an adult, but adult, but adult, but Sandra's mother died when Sandra's mother died when Sandra's mother died when she was 18 or 19. she was 18 or 19. It's really terrible, It's really terrible, she was left alone, she was left alone, she was left alone, her father, for example, her father, for example, her father, for example, was not around, and this was not around, and this was not around, and this made her very made her very made her very vulnerable. And the authorities vulnerable. And the authorities vulnerable. And the authorities say that, you know, say that, you know, say that, you know, Matthew was able to Matthew was able to Matthew was able to take advantage of this. And take advantage of this. And take advantage of this. And think about it, think about it, think about it, she was vulnerable she was vulnerable she was vulnerable from the start. from the start. The defense places The defense places great emphasis on the great emphasis on the great emphasis on the fact that she fact that she fact that she suffered from suffered from suffered from mental mental mental illness. They illness. They illness. They claim she claim she claim she was unstable. was unstable. was unstable. She was seeing She was seeing She was seeing a therapist. In fact, a therapist. In fact, a therapist. In fact, the therapist told the therapist told the therapist told police, according to the police, according to the police, according to the case file, case file, case file, that she did not that she did not that she did not appear appear appear suicidal at all. And I suicidal at all. And I suicidal at all. And I believe they believe they believe they communicated a day communicated a day communicated a day or two before she died.

or two before she died. or two before she died. So there So there So there were no signs from the specialist. But I were no signs from the specialist. But I were no signs from the specialist. But I mean, we also mean, we also mean, we also heard about it, you know, in the heard about it, you know, in the heard about it, you know, in the Lindsay Clancy case, Lindsay Clancy case, Lindsay Clancy case, where the therapist in where the therapist in where the therapist in Massachusetts said Massachusetts said Massachusetts said we didn't think we didn't think we didn't think she was that she was that she was that dangerous. I dangerous. I dangerous. I feel like, wow, feel like, wow, feel like, wow, there are certain themes that there are certain themes that there are certain themes that keep coming up keep coming up keep coming up in Massachusetts in Massachusetts in Massachusetts right now. right now. right now. Oh, without a doubt. Yes. Oh, without a doubt. Yes. Oh, without a doubt. Yes. So obviously, So obviously, So obviously, look, when you're the look, when you're the look, when you're the defense, you have to defense, you have to focus completely on focus completely on this suicide this suicide this suicide because it was because it was because it was staged as a staged as a staged as a suicide, or suicide, or suicide, or at least that's what's being at least that's what's being at least that's what's being claimed. So you claimed. So you claimed. So you have to attack have to attack have to attack the victim as the victim as the victim as aggressively as you aggressively as you aggressively as you can without can without can without alienating alienating alienating the jury. And that's exactly what the jury. And that's exactly what the jury. And that's exactly what they do. they do. they do. They're talking about this They're talking about this They're talking about this abandonment by their father, abandonment by their father, abandonment by their father, right? Which, as right? Which, as right? Which, as it turned out, it turned out, it turned out, was never around. Mom was everything she had was never around. Mom was everything she had was never around. Mom was everything she had . . . Mom died. Here is Mom died. Here is Mom died. Here is a man who, as you a man who, as you a man who, as you said, is an orphan, said, is an orphan, said, is an orphan, now pregnant, a now pregnant, a single mother, according to the single mother, according to the single mother, according to the defense, he is not leaving his defense, he is not leaving his defense, he is not leaving his wife. He wife. He wife. He came there that came there that came there that night to end the night to end the night to end the relationship, right?

relationship, right? relationship, right? And then she And then she And then she breaks down and decides to breaks down and decides to breaks down and decides to end it all. end it all. end it all. I don't believe it, but the I don't believe it, but the I don't believe it, but the defense defense defense really has to go all the way with the really has to go all the way with the suicide version. So suicide version. So I'm not surprised I'm not surprised I'm not surprised they're attacking they're attacking they're attacking Sandra the way Sandra the way Sandra the way they are. they are. they are. Yes. They also Yes. They also Yes. They also point out that, you point out that, you point out that, you know, despite know, despite know, despite living on her own, living on her own, living on her own, meaning having her own apartment for the first time meaning having her own apartment for the first time meaning having her own apartment for the first time as an as an as an adult, she did adult, she did adult, she did n't really have a n't really have a n't really have a lot of money. She lot of money. She lot of money. She only had a few only had a few only had a few dollars in the bank. Um, dollars in the bank. Um, dollars in the bank. Um, according to the according to the according to the defense. So how was she defense. So how was she defense. So how was she going to pay the going to pay the going to pay the rent? This seems to rent? This seems to rent? This seems to suggest that Matthew's pressure suggest that Matthew's pressure suggest that Matthew's pressure for financial for financial for financial support support support was not was not was not just about the child, but about just about the child, but about just about the child, but about her inability to her inability to her inability to make ends meet make ends meet make ends meet . You know, I'm . You know, I'm . You know, I'm sure there will be sure there will be sure there will be more more more information about this. But one thing information about this. But one thing information about this. But one thing seems clear, seems clear, seems clear, especially from the text especially from the text especially from the text messages, even the messages, even the messages, even the messages between messages between messages between Sandra and Matthew, is that Sandra and Matthew, is that she wants a baby. she wants a baby. She wants a child and she She wants a child and she wants a child from wants a child from wants a child from him. And there him. And there him. And there was a lot of was a lot of was a lot of correspondence on this topic. So I don't correspondence on this topic. So I don't correspondence on this topic. So I don't think this is all think this is all think this is all a surprise, can a surprise, can a surprise, can it be refuted at all it be refuted at all it be refuted at all ? I don't think so ? I don't think so . I do . I do . I do n't think so. I think it's n't think so. I think it's n't think so. I think it's quite understandable that quite understandable that quite understandable that she wanted a child, she wanted a child, she wanted a child, she was happy about she was happy about she was happy about the pregnancy, waiting for the pregnancy, waiting for the pregnancy, waiting for it and preparing for the it and preparing for the it and preparing for the baby's arrival.

baby's arrival. baby's arrival. Obviously, this Obviously, this Obviously, this contradicts the contradicts the contradicts the defense argument that defense argument that defense argument that she wanted she wanted she wanted to end her life, to end her life, to end her life, because that is what she because that is what she because that is what she wanted and what wanted and what wanted and what she intended to she intended to she intended to live for. live for. live for. So, in December 2020, So, in December 2020, So, in December 2020, she gets the she gets the she gets the best news. She best news. She best news. She got exactly what she got exactly what she got exactly what she wanted—she wanted—she wanted—she was pregnant. Again was pregnant. Again was pregnant. Again , we know that , we know that , we know that the father turned out to be the father turned out to be the father turned out to be another man. We don't another man. We don't another man. We don't know who, but it's someone know who, but it's someone know who, but it's someone else. During her else. During her else. During her pregnancy, Matthew and pregnancy, Matthew and pregnancy, Matthew and Sandra continued Sandra continued Sandra continued their relationship, even their relationship, even their relationship, even though she though she though she was only about 10 was only about 10 was only about 10 weeks pregnant. weeks pregnant. weeks pregnant. She told She told She told more than more than more than 80 people about her pregnancy. That's a lot of 80 people about her pregnancy. That's a lot of 80 people about her pregnancy. That's a lot of people. So many people. So many people. So many knew that sooner or later knew that sooner or later knew that sooner or later all this would come out all this would come out all this would come out . Even if . Even if . Even if she technically wasn't she technically wasn't she technically wasn't going to going to going to announce it, the announce it, the announce it, the secret would still be secret would still be secret would still be out. out. out. Oh yes. I mean, you know, Oh yes. I mean, you know, Oh yes. I mean, you know, you can tell you can tell you can tell one or eight one or eight one or eight people, but when people, but when people, but when the number reaches 80, then, the number reaches 80, then, the number reaches 80, then, probably, everything is already probably, everything is already probably, everything is already clear. clear. clear. Listen, this is a Listen, this is a Listen, this is a small community, small community, small community, especially the police especially the police especially the police community. It would have become community. It would have become community. It would have become known anyway known anyway known anyway if people didn't already if people didn't already if people didn't already know. This know. This know. This was perhaps one of those " was perhaps one of those " worst kept" worst kept" worst kept" secrets. Yes, secrets. Yes, secrets. Yes, definitely. So, definitely. So, definitely. So, January 20, 2021—that's January 20, 2021—that's January 20, 2021—that's when that when that when that call came from call came from call came from Sandra's friend, Sandra's friend, Sandra's friend, informing informing informing the dispatcher about the the dispatcher about the the dispatcher about the ongoing affair. This date is ongoing affair. This date is ongoing affair. This date is very important. So, very important. So, very important. So, Matthew—again, Matthew—again, Matthew—again, it's all in the it's all in the it's all in the indictment.

indictment. And so Matthew writes to And so Matthew writes to Sandra, and I quote, this is what Sandra, and I quote, this is what Sandra, and I quote, this is what he tells her. Dude, he tells her. Dude, he tells her. Dude, your [ __ ] girlfriend your [ __ ] girlfriend your [ __ ] girlfriend called my called my called my work. Sandro, what the work. Sandro, what the work. Sandro, what the hell? hell? hell? People, you'll have to People, you'll have to People, you'll have to put up with these put up with these put up with these antics. You also antics. You also antics. You also told me that told me that told me that no one knew about us. Oh, no one knew about us. Oh, no one knew about us. Oh, really? I really? I really? I mean, what is he, a mean, what is he, a mean, what is he, a five-year-old kid? five-year-old kid? five-year-old kid? Enough for you. Enough for you. Um, but she Um, but she claimed that we were, claimed that we were, claimed that we were, damn, like, you have damn, like, you have damn, like, you have no idea how no idea how no idea how bad it is, but how does bad it is, but how does bad it is, but how does she know and how does she know and how does she know and how does she know anything about she know anything about she know anything about me, it's all kind of me, it's all kind of me, it's all kind of strange. I literally can't strange. I literally can't strange. I literally can't believe this is believe this is believe this is happening in happening in happening in real life. real life. real life. What is he, a five-year-old child? What is he, a five-year-old child? What is he, a five-year-old child? What is he, a five-year-old What is he, a five-year-old What is he, a five-year-old child? I just...Yes, child? I just...Yes, child? I just...Yes, that's right. that's right. that's right. And this is after, you know what, And this is after, you know what, And this is after, you know what, eight years of eight years of eight years of sexual sexual sexual relations? But that's enough for relations? But that's enough for relations? But that's enough for you. You know, you. You know, you. You know, no one knows about this. no one knows about this. no one knows about this. Oh, that's enough for you. Oh, that's enough for Oh, that's enough for you. Oh, that's enough for Oh, that's enough for you. Oh, that's enough for you. And then he writes: what you. And then he writes: what you. And then he writes: what else do I have else do I have else do I have to worry about now? What other to worry about now? What other to worry about now? What other friend will do something friend will do something friend will do something tomorrow? Oh, that's enough for you. And tomorrow? Oh, that's enough for you. And tomorrow? Oh, that's enough for you. And you are our victim here.

you are our victim here. you are our victim here. Yes. No, he's definitely Yes. No, he's definitely Yes. No, he's definitely playing the victim playing the victim . It's not entirely . It's not entirely . It's not entirely his fault and his his fault and his his fault and his responsibility, responsibility, responsibility, right? Of course, right? Of course, right? Of course, blaming someone blaming someone blaming someone else for the problems else for the problems else for the problems they themselves created they themselves created they themselves created and the crimes they and the crimes they and the crimes they committed. committed. committed. As stated. As stated. As stated. Yes. As stated Yes. As stated , of course. , of course. , of course. As stated. As stated. As stated. So, February 1, 2021, So, February 1, 2021, is the moment when all of is the moment when all of Sandra's dreams Sandra's dreams Sandra's dreams came to an end. She came to an end. She came to an end. She spent the day spent the day spent the day chatting with chatting with chatting with friends. As we friends. As we friends. As we said, she said, she said, she was working on her was working on her was working on her nursing school application. nursing school application. nursing school application. That's what her friends That's what her friends That's what her friends and family say. Why would she commit and family say. Why would she commit suicide if she was suicide if she was starting a new career? starting a new career? starting a new career? All these facts point All these facts point All these facts point to a woman who was to a woman who was to a woman who was fully engaged in fully engaged in fully engaged in life. Okay, she life. Okay, she life. Okay, she was doing a second load of laundry, was doing a second load of laundry, was doing a second load of laundry, but they couldn't but they couldn't but they couldn't find her for 3 days because of a find her for 3 days because of a find her for 3 days because of a snowstorm. And when snowstorm. And when snowstorm. And when she didn't show up for she didn't show up for she didn't show up for work, the police work, the police work, the police checked her apartment, checked her apartment, checked her apartment, and that's when they and that's when they and that's when they found this pregnant found this pregnant found this pregnant woman. You know, I'm woman. You know, I'm woman. You know, I'm sorry I sorry I sorry I looked at the looked at the crime scene photo, because it's really crime scene photo, because it's really horrifying to see horrifying to see horrifying to see someone in that position, with their someone in that position, with their someone in that position, with their neck tied to a neck tied to a neck tied to a doorknob. This...This is doorknob. This...This is doorknob. This...This is terrible. This is just...

terrible. This is just... This is just awful. This is just awful. This is just awful. Terribly. Um, but her Terribly. Um, but her Terribly. Um, but her friends and family didn't accept it friends and family didn't accept it friends and family didn't accept it . Although . Although . Although the police and the the police and the forensic expert forensic expert forensic expert say there is nothing say there is nothing say there is nothing special here, do you special here, do you special here, do you think think think serious serious serious investigations are possible here? investigations are possible here? I think, yes, the case I think, yes, the case has attracted a lot of has attracted a lot of has attracted a lot of attention, and again, attention, and again, attention, and again, these decisions these decisions these decisions of forensic experts, of forensic experts, of forensic experts, if we talk about if we talk about if we talk about law enforcement agencies law enforcement agencies , if we talk about the , if we talk about the , if we talk about the CME. I CME. I don't know about SME, although don't know about SME, although I'm not thrilled. True. I'm not thrilled. True. I'm not thrilled. True. Obviously, a lot of Obviously, a lot of Obviously, a lot of people are unhappy about people are unhappy about people are unhappy about this, but what... The this, but what... The main issue, main issue, obviously, in the obviously, in the obviously, in the Karen Reed case, Michael Karen Reed case, Michael Karen Reed case, Michael Proctor certainly Proctor certainly Proctor certainly received his share of received his share of received his share of disciplinary disciplinary disciplinary action, and I wouldn't be action, and I wouldn't be action, and I wouldn't be surprised if something like this surprised if something like this surprised if something like this happens happens happens again, especially if again, especially if again, especially if there's a there's a there's a conviction, because this case is conviction, because this case is conviction, because this case is getting getting getting more and more attention on more and more attention on more and more attention on social media. People social media. People social media. People are becoming more and more are becoming more and more are becoming more and more critical. This is not critical. This is not critical. This is not Karen Reed, because the case is Karen Reed, because the case is Karen Reed, because the case is not not not televised, as was the case televised, as was the case televised, as was the case with Karen Reed, with Karen Reed, with Karen Reed, Jackson, and the attempted Jackson, and the attempted Jackson, and the attempted cover-up. It's cover-up. It's cover-up. It's just a different type of just a different type of just a different type of thing in terms of thing in terms of thing in terms of attention. You know, I don't attention. You know, I don't attention. You know, I don't see people outside the see people outside the see people outside the courthouse in courthouse in courthouse in pink like they did with pink like they did with pink like they did with Karen Reed. But as the Karen Reed. But as the Karen Reed. But as the case progresses, and case progresses, and case progresses, and if law enforcement...

if law enforcement... let's say, " failed failed failed the investigation," if the investigation," if the investigation," if not to call it a not to call it a not to call it a cover-up, I wouldn't be cover-up, I wouldn't be cover-up, I wouldn't be surprised, Anna, if there were surprised, Anna, if there were surprised, Anna, if there were disciplinary disciplinary disciplinary proceedings, proceedings, proceedings, criminal criminal criminal prosecution—it's prosecution—it's unlikely, but it's unlikely, but it's unlikely, but it's definitely... definitely... because we'll never because we'll never know all the know all the forensic forensic information that was lost, because information that was lost, because information that was lost, because they just they just they just summed it up like, " summed it up like, " let me check on that let me check on that let me check on that guy she was having an guy she was having an guy she was having an affair with." Oh, he says he affair with." Oh, he says he wasn't. Oh, wasn't. Oh, wasn't. Oh, of course. Listen, of course. Listen, of course. Listen, it was nice it was nice it was nice talking to you. talking to you. talking to you. Yes, especially regarding Yes, especially regarding Yes, especially regarding digital chronology. digital chronology. digital chronology. As far as I understand, the As far as I understand, the As far as I understand, the last message last message last message was sent 4 was sent 4 was sent 4 minutes before he minutes before he minutes before he arrived. He was there for, arrived. He was there for, arrived. He was there for, I think, 29 minutes, I think, 29 minutes, I think, 29 minutes, right? That is, he was the right? That is, he was the right? That is, he was the last person to last person to last person to see her alive. You see her alive. You see her alive. You can't conduct an can't conduct an can't conduct an investigation like this investigation like this investigation like this . At the very least, you . At the very least, you . At the very least, you should consider him a should consider him a should consider him a suspect or suspect or suspect or at least a person of at least a person of at least a person of interest, you can't interest, you can't interest, you can't just just just close a case where close a case where close a case where he had every motive he had every motive he had every motive to get rid of her, to get rid of her, to get rid of her, right? So, right? So, right? So, yes. Yes. And if it's yes. Yes. And if it's yes. Yes. And if it's true, as true, as true, as prosecutors say, that he prosecutors say, that he prosecutors say, that he strangled her, and if it's strangled her, and if it's strangled her, and if it's true that he true that he true that he staged it as a staged it as a staged it as a suicide, that suicide, that suicide, that takes the case to a takes the case to a takes the case to a new level, an even new level, an even new level, an even more horrific one.

more horrific one. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Listen, the defense is going to Listen, the defense is going to Listen, the defense is going to argue that, argue that, argue that, you know, his DNA you know, his DNA you know, his DNA wasn't under her fingernails. And wasn't under her fingernails. And , you know, they say there's , you know, they say there's other people's DNA on the strap, and they other people's DNA on the strap, and they 'll 'll 'll use those use those use those arguments. But arguments. But arguments. But of course I believe the of course I believe the of course I believe the prosecution has prosecution has prosecution has good cause good cause good cause for the reasons we've for the reasons we've for the reasons we've discussed that the discussed that the discussed that the cause of death cause of death cause of death was actually was actually was actually strangulation by strangulation by strangulation by Farwell. So, Farwell. So, Farwell. So, let's see what let's see what let's see what their their their experts have to say. I'm sure experts have to say. I'm sure experts have to say. I'm sure when the defense begins when the defense begins when the defense begins its main case, its main case, its main case, they'll bring in they'll bring in they'll bring in experts who experts who experts who will say it was will say it was will say it was suicide, and we suicide, and we suicide, and we know that's how it should be know that's how it should be know that's how it should be . But, um, no, I . But, um, no, I . But, um, no, I agree with you, Anna. I agree with you, Anna. I agree with you, Anna. I think, you know, this is a think, you know, this is a think, you know, this is a strong and compelling strong and compelling strong and compelling case in terms of case in terms of yes, motive, means and yes, motive, means and opportunity to kill opportunity to kill opportunity to kill Sandra Barmore. And the Sandra Barmore. And the Sandra Barmore. And the prosecution is also prosecution is also prosecution is also going to include going to include going to include text text text messages in which messages in which messages in which he apparently he apparently he apparently enjoyed, um, enjoyed, um, enjoyed, um, violent, what I would violent, what I would violent, what I would call, more call, more call, more violent violent violent sexual acts, sexual acts, sexual acts, and also fantasized, and also fantasized, and also fantasized, um, about horrible things um, about horrible things um, about horrible things about women, and then, about women, and then, about women, and then, um, allegedly actually um, allegedly actually um, allegedly actually enjoyed enjoyed enjoyed strangulation, strangulation, strangulation, asphyxiation, as asphyxiation, as asphyxiation, as part of, um, his part of, um, his part of, um, his sexual sexual sexual encounters.

encounters. So, they are going to So, they are going to try to prove try to prove try to prove two points. First, two points. First, two points. First, it was something he it was something he it was something he liked. Second, liked. Second, liked. Second, her vigilance was her vigilance was her vigilance was dulled. dulled. Yes. Yes. If his hands If his hands If his hands reached for her neck reached for her neck , if this story is , if this story is , if this story is true. true. Yes. So, we talked Yes. So, we talked about some of those about some of those about some of those deviant fetishes deviant fetishes deviant fetishes and fantasies and what and fantasies and what and fantasies and what they were already doing. they were already doing. So it's possible, So it's possible, um, that she thought, " um, that she thought, " Hey, I'm just getting Hey, I'm just getting Hey, I'm just getting strangled during sex," strangled during sex," strangled during sex," and maybe that's and maybe that's and maybe that's normal for their normal for their normal for their sexual sexual sexual relationship. Being relationship. Being relationship. Being much bigger and much bigger and much bigger and stronger than her, he stronger than her, he stronger than her, he could kill her without giving could kill her without giving could kill her without giving her a chance to resist, her a chance to resist, her a chance to resist, scratch, and struggle, scratch, and struggle, scratch, and struggle, as is usually the case as is usually the case as is usually the case in cases of strangulation. in cases of strangulation. Yes. You really didn't Yes. You really didn't see the protective see the protective see the protective features of this, features of this, features of this, you know. So it might you know. So it might you know. So it might be likely, be likely, be likely, given their given their given their shared history. This is shared history. This is shared history. This is all a possibility.

all a possibility. So, um, the So, um, the trial began on trial began on trial began on October 9th, opening statements October 9th, opening statements , and prosecutors , and prosecutors , and prosecutors outlined their outlined their outlined their case against Matthew. case against Matthew. They claim that They claim that Matthew's DNA was Matthew's DNA was Matthew's DNA was found on a strap found on a strap found on a strap that was around her neck, that was around her neck, that was around her neck, but the defense claims but the defense claims but the defense claims that his DNA was not that his DNA was not that his DNA was not under her fingernails. It under her fingernails. It under her fingernails. It wasn't in other places. There wasn't in other places. There wasn't in other places. There is different DNA there, so is different DNA there, so is different DNA there, so we don't consider this we don't consider this we don't consider this case so case so case so clear-cut. And clear-cut. And clear-cut. And remember, the forensic remember, the forensic remember, the forensic examination, I believe, examination, I believe, examination, I believe, was quite incomplete, was quite incomplete, was quite incomplete, given the approach to the given the approach to the given the approach to the crime scene. crime scene. Of course, if you Of course, if you believe this is believe this is believe this is suicide, you will, as you suicide, you will, as you suicide, you will, as you said, said, said, check the appropriate check the appropriate check the appropriate boxes. Perhaps those boxes. Perhaps those boxes. Perhaps those tests were not tests were not tests were not performed or were performed or were performed or were contaminated. You're contaminated. You're contaminated. You're talking about a case talking about a case talking about a case that actually that actually that actually gained momentum a gained momentum a gained momentum a significant amount of time significant amount of time significant amount of time after her death. So I'm after her death. So I'm after her death. So I'm not saying it's a "dull" not saying it's a "dull" not saying it's a "dull" case, but it's definitely not a case, but it's definitely not a case, but it's definitely not a hot one hot one hot one compared to how an compared to how an investigation would normally be conducted if it investigation would normally be conducted if it were believed to be a were believed to be a were believed to be a murder.

murder. murder. Yes. Prosecutors are not Yes. Prosecutors are not Yes. Prosecutors are not seeking the death seeking the death seeking the death penalty, but if Matthew penalty, but if Matthew penalty, but if Matthew is found guilty, he is found guilty, he is found guilty, he faces life in faces life in faces life in prison without the right prison without the right prison without the right to parole to parole to parole . Now we . Now we . Now we want to clarify the want to clarify the want to clarify the situation. Matthew situation. Matthew situation. Matthew denies any denies any denies any wrongdoing. He wrongdoing. He wrongdoing. He pleaded not guilty pleaded not guilty . And since the trial is already . And since the trial is already . And since the trial is already underway, the defense underway, the defense underway, the defense emphasizes again: emphasizes again: emphasizes again: he may have been a bad he may have been a bad he may have been a bad man and worthless in man and worthless in man and worthless in many ways many ways many ways , but that doesn't , but that doesn't , but that doesn't make him a murderer. make him a murderer. They They question the DNA evidence. question the DNA evidence. They also They also portray Sandra as portray Sandra as portray Sandra as mentally mentally mentally unstable and unstable and unstable and say that she say that she say that she threatened him, and threatened him, and threatened him, and perhaps that is the perhaps that is the perhaps that is the reason why she reason why she reason why she tried to commit tried to commit tried to commit suicide. As for suicide. As for suicide. As for the explanation of why Matthew the explanation of why Matthew the explanation of why Matthew was at her apartment the was at her apartment the was at her apartment the night of her death—he night of her death—he night of her death—he came there to came there to came there to end the relationship.

end the relationship. Yes, this is the Yes, this is the protection version. As you protection version. As you protection version. As you said, everyone has the said, everyone has the said, everyone has the right to the presumption of right to the presumption of right to the presumption of innocence, innocence, innocence, including Matthew including Matthew including Matthew Farwell. Obviously, Farwell. Obviously, Farwell. Obviously, we've already talked about we've already talked about we've already talked about this. The defense must this. The defense must this. The defense must press press press Sandra's mental health, Sandra's mental health, Sandra's mental health, arguing, "This is a arguing, "This is a arguing, "This is a person who couldn't person who couldn't person who couldn't take it." take it." take it." It doesn't matter that she was It doesn't matter that she was It doesn't matter that she was doing laundry. It doing laundry. It doing laundry. It didn't matter that she was didn't matter that she was didn't matter that she was making plans for her making plans for her making plans for her life and telling everyone she was life and telling everyone she was life and telling everyone she was pregnant. Once pregnant. Once pregnant. Once her lover disappeared from her her lover disappeared from her her lover disappeared from her life and decided to life and decided to life and decided to end the relationship, end the relationship, end the relationship, she decided to she decided to she decided to end it all. I'm not end it all. I'm not end it all. I'm not saying I believe that, am I saying I believe that, am I saying I believe that, am I ? ? ? But this is a But this is a But this is a defense argument. And you know, the defense argument. And you know, the defense argument. And you know, the timing timing timing only happened because he was only happened because he was only happened because he was there to there to there to finish it all. And now finish it all. And now finish it all. And now again: the hoodie, the mask, again: the hoodie, the mask, again: the hoodie, the mask, and in general, all this and in general, all this and in general, all this disguise. Is it disguise. Is it disguise. Is it necessary necessary necessary to hide your to hide your to hide your identity when you identity when you identity when you break up break up break up with a lover you've with a lover you've with a lover you've been with for eight been with for eight been with for eight years and exchanged years and exchanged years and exchanged thousands of messages with thousands of messages with ? It doesn't seem ? It doesn't seem ? It doesn't seem very convincing to me, very convincing to me, very convincing to me, but you know, the but you know, the but you know, the prosecution has to prosecution has to prosecution has to convince all 12 convince all 12 convince all 12 jurors. So, jurors. So, jurors. So, you know, maybe you know, maybe you know, maybe the defense thinks the defense thinks the defense thinks they can convince they can convince they can convince one or two one or two one or two jurors and jurors and jurors and block the decision.

block the decision. block the decision. I think that would be a I think that would be a I think that would be a victory for the defense victory for the defense victory for the defense in this case. in this case. in this case. I have one question I have one question I have one question about the trial in a about the trial in a about the trial in a murder case in murder case in murder case in federal court. Are federal court. Are federal court. Are there any different, there any different, there any different, you know, criteria you know, criteria you know, criteria that need to that need to that need to be met in a be met in a be met in a federal case federal case federal case compared to a compared to a compared to a state court case when it state court case when it state court case when it comes to murder? comes to murder? comes to murder? This is a reasonable This is a reasonable This is a reasonable doubt. 12 out of 12 doubt. 12 out of 12 doubt. 12 out of 12 jurors, the jurors, the jury instructions are a little jury instructions are a little different, but different, but different, but they're very similar, they're very similar, they're very similar, of course you have to of course you have to of course you have to follow follow follow the basic federal the basic federal the basic federal jurisdictional jurisdictional jurisdictional grounds as well, but no, if grounds as well, but no, if grounds as well, but no, if you get this you get this federal federal murder charge, it's murder charge, it's murder charge, it's potentially life in potentially life in potentially life in prison. I prison. I prison. I need to check need to check need to check again. As I again. As I again. As I understand it, if it's understand it, if it's understand it, if it's murder plus the murder plus the murder plus the murder of an murder of an murder of an unborn child, unborn child, unborn child, it could be a it could be a it could be a mandatory life mandatory life mandatory life sentence, and I sentence, and I sentence, and I need to clarify that. need to clarify that. need to clarify that. But, of course, this is not a But, of course, this is not a But, of course, this is not a case where the case where the case where the death penalty is possible. They did not death penalty is possible. They did not death penalty is possible. They did not file file file a notice of a notice of a notice of intent to seek the intent to seek the intent to seek the death penalty. But I death penalty. But I death penalty. But I think I think I think I need to check again need to check again need to check again , and again. But , and again. But , and again. But if they prove if they prove if they prove both counts, I both counts, I both counts, I think Farwell think Farwell think Farwell will spend the rest of his life in will spend the rest of his life in will spend the rest of his life in prison. Without prison. Without prison. Without the possibility of parole the possibility of parole or or supervision or anything supervision or anything supervision or anything like that.

like that. like that. Yes. This is a failed Yes. This is a failed Yes. This is a failed investigation. I investigation. I investigation. I honestly don't know honestly don't know honestly don't know if this works in his if this works in his if this works in his favor or against favor or against favor or against him. I can him. I can him. I can say I see it from say I see it from say I see it from both sides. both sides. both sides. I really see it I really see it I really see it both ways. I think it's about both ways. I think it's about both ways. I think it's about hiding hiding hiding all this. I think all this. I think all this. I think this is exactly the kind of case this is exactly the kind of case this is exactly the kind of case that could help the that could help the that could help the US Attorney's Office. US Attorney's Office. US Attorney's Office. You know, since you're in You know, since you're in You know, since you're in federal court, you federal court, you federal court, you explain why the explain why the explain why the feds had to feds had to feds had to get involved. You know, get involved. You know, get involved. You know, it's like in those it's like in those it's like in those crime crime crime series, right? series, right? series, right? The locals come The locals come The locals come and they're like, "Oh no, it's and they're like, "Oh no, it's and they're like, "Oh no, it's the feds, they're here to the feds, they're here to the feds, they're here to take take take control of everything," and I control of everything," and I control of everything," and I think think think that was the that was the that was the right decision in this case. right decision in this case. right decision in this case. So I think that So I think that So I think that explains the delay and explains the delay and explains the delay and why things were going why things were going why things were going so badly. Maybe so badly. Maybe so badly. Maybe it's the former prosecutor in me saying this it's the former prosecutor in me saying this it's the former prosecutor in me saying this , , , but I think it but I think it but I think it helps the helps the helps the U.S. Attorney's Office and U.S. Attorney's Office and U.S. Attorney's Office and the Department of Justice the Department of Justice . . . OK. Well, we OK. Well, we OK. Well, we 'll keep an eye on 'll keep an eye on 'll keep an eye on this matter. Will is this matter. Will is this matter. Will is not with us today not with us today , so there , so there , so there will be no comments section, and will be no comments section, and will be no comments section, and sorry, friends, but sorry, friends, but sorry, friends, but no one can no one can no one can replace Will. So, replace Will. So, replace Will. So, before we before we before we finish, Nema, where finish, Nema, where finish, Nema, where can people follow can people follow can people follow you or find you or find you or find you on social you on social you on social media?

media? media? Thanks for inviting Thanks for inviting Thanks for inviting me, Anne. And as always, me, Anne. And as always, me, Anne. And as always, we miss Will, we miss Will, we miss Will, glad David and the glad David and the glad David and the others are here to others are here to others are here to fill in for him. You fill in for him. You fill in for him. You can find me as can find me as can find me as Nema Romani, Neh. I am on all Nema Romani, Neh. I am on all social media platforms. social media platforms. Name any. X, Name any. X, Name any. X, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, and my firm, West Coast Trial and my firm, West Coast Trial and my firm, West Coast Trial Lawyers, is on all of these same Lawyers, is on all of these same Lawyers, is on all of these same platforms. I love platforms. I love platforms. I love being here. Thank you again for being here. Thank you again for being here. Thank you again for inviting me. Oh, that's inviting me. Oh, that's inviting me. Oh, that's always nice. always nice. always nice. Always nice. Uh, Always nice. Uh, Always nice. Uh, you can find me you can find me you can find me as Anna Gene News, Anna with as Anna Gene News, Anna with as Anna Gene News, Anna with one "n". You can one "n". You can one "n". You can find everything we find everything we find everything we do on my true crime news. do on my true crime news. do on my true crime news. Pretty easy to find. Pretty easy to find. Pretty easy to find. Subscribe to our Subscribe to our Subscribe to our YouTube channel. If YouTube channel. If YouTube channel. If you want to be you want to be you want to be part of our part of our part of our newsletter, newsletter, newsletter, subscribe to true subscribe to true subscribe to true crimenews.com. So, until crimenews.com. So, until crimenews.com. So, until next week, this is next week, this is next week, this is True Crime News, the podcast. I'm True Crime News, the podcast. I'm True Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Dana your host, Dana your host, Dana Garcia. Crime Garcia. Crime Garcia. Crime never never never stops, and neither do we.