Why Kids' Books Matter (with Jen Wilkin) [The Deep Dish - Ep. 46]

I had a seminary professor say that I had a seminary professor say that [music] as we're teaching children, [music] as we're teaching children, [music] as we're teaching children, whether it's in Sunday school or in a whether it's in Sunday school or in a whether it's in Sunday school or in a children's Bible, that we don't ever children's Bible, that we don't ever children's Bible, that we don't ever want, we just want the door to keep want, we just want the door to keep want, we just want the door to keep revolving and they just get more and revolving and they just get more and revolving and they just get more and more clarity on the [music] story. We more clarity on the [music] story. We more clarity on the [music] story. We don't ever want it to be a bait and don't ever want it to be a bait and don't ever want it to be a bait and switch where they get to be 20 years old switch where they get to be 20 years old switch where they get to be 20 years old and they read, they're like, "Wait a and they read, they're like, "Wait a and they read, they're like, "Wait a minute, that's not what the story was minute, that's not what the story was minute, that's not what the story was really about." [music] So, it's okay really about." [music] So, it's okay really about." [music] So, it's okay that it's a simplified version as long that it's a simplified version as long that it's a simplified version as long as it's the [music] the direction, the as it's the [music] the direction, the as it's the [music] the direction, the thing that they can gain is just more thing that they can gain is just more thing that they can gain is just more understanding on the same story, not a understanding on the same story, not a understanding on the same story, not a whole new story. Hey friends, welcome to The Deep Dish, a Hey friends, welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with my co-host Courtney Doctor and here with my co-host Courtney Doctor and here with my co-host Courtney Doctor and we are joined today with our good friend we are joined today with our good friend we are joined today with our good friend and I mean you're basically a co-host at and I mean you're basically a co-host at and I mean you're basically a co-host at this point. You've been on [laughter] this point. You've been on [laughter] this point. You've been on [laughter] it. Basically the three of us don't tell it. Basically the three of us don't tell it. Basically the three of us don't tell Kyle and JT Kyle and JT Kyle and JT we're doing it on the her stole her. Did we're doing it on the her stole her. Did we're doing it on the her stole her. Did you just you just you just love to go around?

love to go around? love to go around? >> So smart. >> So smart. >> So smart. The last time we were all together, we The last time we were all together, we The last time we were all together, we were in Indie. Jen, are you okay talking were in Indie. Jen, are you okay talking were in Indie. Jen, are you okay talking about this? I mean, there were tornado about this? I mean, there were tornado about this? I mean, there were tornado sirens going on. sirens going on. sirens going on. >> Oh my gosh. And Jen loved it. She was >> Oh my gosh. And Jen loved it. She was >> Oh my gosh. And Jen loved it. She was like, "This is the best." like, "This is the best." like, "This is the best." >> Yeah. And Mike, Melissa's husband, he >> Yeah. And Mike, Melissa's husband, he >> Yeah. And Mike, Melissa's husband, he was not having any of it. I am losing my was not having any of it. I am losing my was not having any of it. I am losing my mind. mind. mind. >> We were on What floor were we on? >> We were on What floor were we on? >> We were on What floor were we on? >> 17th floor. >> 17th floor. >> 17th floor. >> We were on the 17th floor. But to be >> We were on the 17th floor. But to be >> We were on the 17th floor. But to be fair, I did not know until later. fair, I did not know until later. fair, I did not know until later. how intense your emotions were. You were how intense your emotions were. You were how intense your emotions were. You were really keeping it under wraps. really keeping it under wraps. really keeping it under wraps. >> I was trying to and I'm like I'm like >> I was trying to and I'm like I'm like >> I was trying to and I'm like I'm like basically searching through this room basically searching through this room basically searching through this room that we're in for an interior space that we're in for an interior space that we're in for an interior space >> and it's fine. It's not even close to >> and it's fine. It's not even close to >> and it's fine. It's not even close to here, which was a lie. [laughter] here, which was a lie. [laughter] here, which was a lie. [laughter] >> It was close. So when my mom called and >> It was close. So when my mom called and >> It was close. So when my mom called and said, "We need to go to the stairwell said, "We need to go to the stairwell said, "We need to go to the stairwell right now." You didn't like that did not right now." You didn't like that did not right now." You didn't like that did not comfort you. I didn't hear that. But, comfort you. I didn't hear that. But, comfort you. I didn't hear that. But, you know, then the next day all of the you know, then the next day all of the you know, then the next day all of the women who who were in other hotels said women who who were in other hotels said women who who were in other hotels said that they had to come down to the lobby that they had to come down to the lobby that they had to come down to the lobby in the basement of their hotels. Our in the basement of their hotels. Our in the basement of their hotels. Our hotel was like, "Yeah, you're probably hotel was like, "Yeah, you're probably hotel was like, "Yeah, you're probably fine. You're fine." They were the Mike fine. You're fine." They were the Mike fine. You're fine." They were the Mike Krueger school of thought about Krueger school of thought about Krueger school of thought about [laughter] emergency weather situations.

[laughter] emergency weather situations. [laughter] emergency weather situations. And I have to say, he was the safety And I have to say, he was the safety And I have to say, he was the safety parent for us. So, I am very used to if parent for us. So, I am very used to if parent for us. So, I am very used to if Mike is not stressed about it, I'm not Mike is not stressed about it, I'm not Mike is not stressed about it, I'm not stressed about it because he I you know, stressed about it because he I you know, stressed about it because he I you know, he was the one who took on all the worry he was the one who took on all the worry he was the one who took on all the worry and fear of our home. So, I was like, and fear of our home. So, I was like, and fear of our home. So, I was like, "Oh, no. In our marriage, I'm the one "Oh, no. In our marriage, I'm the one "Oh, no. In our marriage, I'm the one who's got the dogs and the kids in a who's got the dogs and the kids in a who's got the dogs and the kids in a bathtub with a mattress [laughter] over bathtub with a mattress [laughter] over bathtub with a mattress [laughter] over us. And Jeff is out in the front yard us. And Jeff is out in the front yard us. And Jeff is out in the front yard staring up at the sky, watching the staring up at the sky, watching the staring up at the sky, watching the clouds swirl. Stop. clouds swirl. Stop. clouds swirl. Stop. >> And I'm like, "No one's going to marry >> And I'm like, "No one's going to marry >> And I'm like, "No one's going to marry me. Who's going to want me with all me. Who's going to want me with all me. Who's going to want me with all these little kids and pets?" these little kids and pets?" these little kids and pets?" >> That is so funny. We used to have an >> That is so funny. We used to have an >> That is so funny. We used to have an actual storm, an actual tornado shelter actual storm, an actual tornado shelter actual storm, an actual tornado shelter in our house in Kansas. And every time in our house in Kansas. And every time in our house in Kansas. And every time it would start like getting the girls it would start like getting the girls it would start like getting the girls would go get every single stuffed animal would go get every single stuffed animal would go get every single stuffed animal that they owned and they would put them that they owned and they would put them that they owned and they would put them in the storm shelter. There would be no in the storm shelter. There would be no in the storm shelter. There would be no room for us. But the stuffed animals room for us. But the stuffed animals room for us. But the stuffed animals were going to survive that thing. By were going to survive that thing. By were going to survive that thing. By golly. golly. golly. >> Yes. Do you know what my kids what Kate >> Yes. Do you know what my kids what Kate >> Yes. Do you know what my kids what Kate brought in? This happened like a year brought in? This happened like a year brought in? This happened like a year ago. [laughter] ago. [laughter] ago. [laughter] Book books. She brought the Harry Potter Book books. She brought the Harry Potter Book books. She brought the Harry Potter books. [laughter] books. [laughter] books. [laughter] >> Okay. Well, look at me. I'm going to >> Okay. Well, look at me. I'm going to >> Okay. Well, look at me. I'm going to segue into our actual topic then on that segue into our actual topic then on that segue into our actual topic then on that one. [laughter] one. [laughter] one. [laughter] >> Look at that. Because we're going to >> Look at that. Because we're going to >> Look at that. Because we're going to talk today about why kids books are talk today about why kids books are talk today about why kids books are important. So, we do all love children's important. So, we do all love children's important. So, we do all love children's books. I actually still love reading books. I actually still love reading books. I actually still love reading like young adult and and some books that like young adult and and some books that like young adult and and some books that I read like in those um late elementary I read like in those um late elementary I read like in those um late elementary um if they're good literature, they're um if they're good literature, they're um if they're good literature, they're good literature. So, I I love uh good literature. So, I I love uh good literature. So, I I love uh children's books of all ages. Um we've children's books of all ages. Um we've children's books of all ages. Um we've actually each written a children's book, actually each written a children's book, actually each written a children's book, well, a children's book. We'll talk more

well, a children's book. We'll talk more well, a children's book. We'll talk more about those in a minute. Melissa's been about those in a minute. Melissa's been about those in a minute. Melissa's been incredibly prolific and written more incredibly prolific and written more incredibly prolific and written more than one, but I'll tell that story a than one, but I'll tell that story a than one, but I'll tell that story a little bit later. So, what I want to little bit later. So, what I want to little bit later. So, what I want to start by asking is what is a favorite start by asking is what is a favorite start by asking is what is a favorite memory that you all have of reading to memory that you all have of reading to memory that you all have of reading to your children? Well, at our house, your children? Well, at our house, your children? Well, at our house, someone gave us as a gift when our someone gave us as a gift when our someone gave us as a gift when our oldest was born the book of common oldest was born the book of common oldest was born the book of common virtues. Have you ever seen this? virtues. Have you ever seen this? virtues. Have you ever seen this? >> Yeah. William Bennett. Was that? >> Yeah. William Bennett. Was that? >> Yeah. William Bennett. Was that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And it was like a it was like a an >> Yeah. And it was like a it was like a an >> Yeah. And it was like a it was like a an anthology of um for all intents and anthology of um for all intents and anthology of um for all intents and purposes morality tales that were drawn purposes morality tales that were drawn purposes morality tales that were drawn from all different traditions. And um it from all different traditions. And um it from all different traditions. And um it ended up being such a fun introductory ended up being such a fun introductory ended up being such a fun introductory point to like longer works of classic uh point to like longer works of classic uh point to like longer works of classic uh writing. So like right now, you know, writing. So like right now, you know, writing. So like right now, you know, the um is it the Iliad that's coming out the um is it the Iliad that's coming out the um is it the Iliad that's coming out >> or the anid? I never came. >> or the anid? I never came. >> or the anid? I never came. >> I think >> I think >> I think >> anyway um everybody all the guys in the >> anyway um everybody all the guys in the >> anyway um everybody all the guys in the family are doing a read through. Um, and family are doing a read through. Um, and family are doing a read through. Um, and you know, we got excerpts of that in the you know, we got excerpts of that in the you know, we got excerpts of that in the book of common virtues. And its basic book of common virtues. And its basic book of common virtues. And its basic um, idea was children are not just going um, idea was children are not just going um, idea was children are not just going to hear good stories, they're going to to hear good stories, they're going to to hear good stories, they're going to learn how to be good people. And I get learn how to be good people. And I get learn how to be good people. And I get it. People are listening to this and it. People are listening to this and it. People are listening to this and they're like, "We're not supposed to be they're like, "We're not supposed to be they're like, "We're not supposed to be good people. It's all grace." Um, bear good people. It's all grace." Um, bear good people. It's all grace." Um, bear with me. My my philosophy on this is I with me. My my philosophy on this is I with me. My my philosophy on this is I would rather raise a well-behaved pagan would rather raise a well-behaved pagan would rather raise a well-behaved pagan than a a poorly behaved pagan. Uh, so than a a poorly behaved pagan. Uh, so than a a poorly behaved pagan. Uh, so I'm just going to take it wherever I can I'm just going to take it wherever I can I'm just going to take it wherever I can get it. Obviously in a Christian home, get it. Obviously in a Christian home, get it. Obviously in a Christian home, you're messaging grace, right? And so you're messaging grace, right? And so you're messaging grace, right? And so for me, um the the the stories with the

for me, um the the the stories with the for me, um the the the stories with the morals were another way of teaching, morals were another way of teaching, morals were another way of teaching, hey, this is what it looks like to to be hey, this is what it looks like to to be hey, this is what it looks like to to be a follower of Jesus. a follower of Jesus. a follower of Jesus. >> Um and uh it's also how we love our >> Um and uh it's also how we love our >> Um and uh it's also how we love our neighbor, which is the the big emphasis neighbor, which is the the big emphasis neighbor, which is the the big emphasis of being a follower of Jesus as well. of being a follower of Jesus as well. of being a follower of Jesus as well. >> And can I just on that virtue is a good >> And can I just on that virtue is a good >> And can I just on that virtue is a good thing. We want we want we want to be thing. We want we want we want to be thing. We want we want we want to be virtuous. We want our children to be virtuous. We want our children to be virtuous. We want our children to be virtuous. Exactly. Virtue is a good virtuous. Exactly. Virtue is a good virtuous. Exactly. Virtue is a good thing. Um, and it's like the law. You thing. Um, and it's like the law. You thing. Um, and it's like the law. You try, you try to be virtuous and you try, you try to be virtuous and you try, you try to be virtuous and you can't, and you need Jesus to do it. can't, and you need Jesus to do it. can't, and you need Jesus to do it. >> Well, I was just going to say, you're >> Well, I was just going to say, you're >> Well, I was just going to say, you're also kind of setting your kids heroes. also kind of setting your kids heroes. also kind of setting your kids heroes. Like, don't we want them, you know, like Like, don't we want them, you know, like Like, don't we want them, you know, like I remember, oh, it was one of those I remember, oh, it was one of those I remember, oh, it was one of those fairy tales and it's about cleaning fairy tales and it's about cleaning fairy tales and it's about cleaning under the rug. Do you remember this? And under the rug. Do you remember this? And under the rug. Do you remember this? And there was like, okay, it's, you know, there was like, okay, it's, you know, there was like, okay, it's, you know, and so every time I think about that, and so every time I think about that, and so every time I think about that, I'm like, I should clean under under the I'm like, I should clean under under the I'm like, I should clean under under the rug. Like, I should really do an rug. Like, I should really do an rug. Like, I should really do an excellent job. [laughter] And it's excellent job. [laughter] And it's excellent job. [laughter] And it's because of a story I read in my because of a story I read in my because of a story I read in my childhood. That's awesome. I mean, childhood. That's awesome. I mean, childhood. That's awesome. I mean, [laughter and gasps] my favorite. [laughter and gasps] my favorite. [laughter and gasps] my favorite. >> It's fair. You know, it gets in your >> It's fair. You know, it gets in your >> It's fair. You know, it gets in your mind like, oh, you know, think about it mind like, oh, you know, think about it mind like, oh, you know, think about it this way. I think for me, you know this way. I think for me, you know this way. I think for me, you know what's funny? When I think about my what's funny? When I think about my what's funny? When I think about my favorite memory of reading with my kids, favorite memory of reading with my kids, favorite memory of reading with my kids, it's actually just their physical it's actually just their physical it's actually just their physical presence. And I know a mom of young kids presence. And I know a mom of young kids presence. And I know a mom of young kids right now probably wants to like knock right now probably wants to like knock right now probably wants to like knock me out because she's like, "People are me out because she's like, "People are me out because she's like, "People are touching me all day long, and I'm so touching me all day long, and I'm so touching me all day long, and I'm so [laughter] exhausted of being touched."

[laughter] exhausted of being touched." [laughter] exhausted of being touched." But I and so I'm saying this as an empty But I and so I'm saying this as an empty But I and so I'm saying this as an empty neester. You know, I don't have anyone neester. You know, I don't have anyone neester. You know, I don't have anyone sitting on my lap and I'm not even a sitting on my lap and I'm not even a sitting on my lap and I'm not even a grandmother like you do. So, I do not grandmother like you do. So, I do not grandmother like you do. So, I do not have little ones. And I miss those have little ones. And I miss those have little ones. And I miss those little thighs, you know, just sitting on little thighs, you know, just sitting on little thighs, you know, just sitting on your lap and sucking a thumb. your lap and sucking a thumb. your lap and sucking a thumb. >> So, still. >> So, still. >> So, still. >> I just miss that physical >> I just miss that physical >> I just miss that physical >> presence of sitting together as they >> presence of sitting together as they >> presence of sitting together as they just love reading a book together. I just love reading a book together. I just love reading a book together. I just think it's so special. I don't just think it's so special. I don't just think it's so special. I don't know. What about you, Courtney? What's know. What about you, Courtney? What's know. What about you, Courtney? What's what do you have any memories of reading what do you have any memories of reading what do you have any memories of reading with your kids? Yeah, I have two. One is with your kids? Yeah, I have two. One is with your kids? Yeah, I have two. One is um Craig would read the Chronicles to um Craig would read the Chronicles to um Craig would read the Chronicles to them out loud and just at such an early them out loud and just at such an early them out loud and just at such an early age them just developing this love for age them just developing this love for age them just developing this love for the story and it's just so beautiful. the story and it's just so beautiful. the story and it's just so beautiful. And then the other is my dad used to he And then the other is my dad used to he And then the other is my dad used to he had the story that he would make up um had the story that he would make up um had the story that he would make up um when my brother and I were little and he when my brother and I were little and he when my brother and I were little and he has continued that with his has continued that with his has continued that with his grandchildren and now his grandchildren and now his grandchildren and now his great-grandchildren. And the great great-grandchildren. And the great great-grandchildren. And the great grandchildren they want the it's the grandchildren they want the it's the grandchildren they want the it's the rustler story. My dad grew up in western rustler story. My dad grew up in western rustler story. My dad grew up in western Oklahoma and so it's this cattle rustler Oklahoma and so it's this cattle rustler Oklahoma and so it's this cattle rustler and it has all the you know the sounds and it has all the you know the sounds and it has all the you know the sounds to it like a you have to cut the barb to it like a you have to cut the barb to it like a you have to cut the barb wire fence and then it you know the the wire fence and then it you know the the wire fence and then it you know the the cattle like run on the going on a bear cattle like run on the going on a bear cattle like run on the going on a bear hunt. Yeah. Exactly. And I just I love hunt. Yeah. Exactly. And I just I love hunt. Yeah. Exactly. And I just I love it. I love it so much. And yeah, it's it. I love it so much. And yeah, it's it. I love it so much. And yeah, it's just so fun to see that continue through just so fun to see that continue through just so fun to see that continue through through the generations. We have a very through the generations. We have a very through the generations. We have a very funny um shared family memory of reading funny um shared family memory of reading funny um shared family memory of reading um Narnia out loud in the car on a car um Narnia out loud in the car on a car um Narnia out loud in the car on a car trip and I was the reader and Jeff was

trip and I was the reader and Jeff was trip and I was the reader and Jeff was the driver and um we needed to stop and the driver and um we needed to stop and the driver and um we needed to stop and use the bathroom and have dinner and use the bathroom and have dinner and use the bathroom and have dinner and everything and so it's like you know everything and so it's like you know everything and so it's like you know just get a little further get a little just get a little further get a little just get a little further get a little further into the story and we get to the further into the story and we get to the further into the story and we get to the part where Alan spoiler alert listeners part where Alan spoiler alert listeners part where Alan spoiler alert listeners Alan dies and the whole car is balling Alan dies and the whole car is balling Alan dies and the whole car is balling and Jeff is like I am not pulling this and Jeff is like I am not pulling this and Jeff is like I am not pulling this car over until that lion is alive again. car over until that lion is alive again. car over until that lion is alive again. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> He's like, "You keep reading." >> He's like, "You keep reading." >> He's like, "You keep reading." >> Oh my gosh. I as an adult was driving >> Oh my gosh. I as an adult was driving >> Oh my gosh. I as an adult was driving from St. Louis to Chattanooga one time from St. Louis to Chattanooga one time from St. Louis to Chattanooga one time listening to the horse and his boy on listening to the horse and his boy on listening to the horse and his boy on audio and I mean ugly crying when you audio and I mean ugly crying when you audio and I mean ugly crying when you know Alen's asking like you know know Alen's asking like you know know Alen's asking like you know [laughter] that was when he's like [laughter] that was when he's like [laughter] that was when he's like saying you know that was me the [gasps] saying you know that was me the [gasps] saying you know that was me the [gasps] lion that chased you here and the lion lion that chased you here and the lion lion that chased you here and the lion that did this and that that was all me that did this and that that was all me that did this and that that was all me and I'm just like ugly crying. Oh my and I'm just like ugly crying. Oh my and I'm just like ugly crying. Oh my gosh. And I love that. gosh. And I love that. gosh. And I love that. >> That's so good. Well, I think what >> That's so good. Well, I think what >> That's so good. Well, I think what you're both talking about too is like you're both talking about too is like you're both talking about too is like kids, they actually really get into kids, they actually really get into kids, they actually really get into stories. Like they are fully immersed in stories. Like they are fully immersed in stories. Like they are fully immersed in the fact that they're crying. I remember the fact that they're crying. I remember the fact that they're crying. I remember Emma did the exact same thing, Jen, when Emma did the exact same thing, Jen, when Emma did the exact same thing, Jen, when I I remember reading with her and she I I remember reading with her and she I I remember reading with her and she was just weeping about Alan, you know, was just weeping about Alan, you know, was just weeping about Alan, you know, it just it makes it makes things come it just it makes it makes things come it just it makes it makes things come alive for them. So, let me ask you this.

alive for them. So, let me ask you this. alive for them. So, let me ask you this. As parents are walking into a bookstore As parents are walking into a bookstore As parents are walking into a bookstore and they're buying kids books and and they're buying kids books and and they're buying kids books and they're thinking through it, it could be they're thinking through it, it could be they're thinking through it, it could be a little bit like, oh, all kids books, a little bit like, oh, all kids books, a little bit like, oh, all kids books, I'm talking about especially, let's just I'm talking about especially, let's just I'm talking about especially, let's just say kids books 3 to six, seven. Oh, say kids books 3 to six, seven. Oh, say kids books 3 to six, seven. Oh, they're all the same. It doesn't really they're all the same. It doesn't really they're all the same. It doesn't really matter what you read to them at this matter what you read to them at this matter what you read to them at this age. What's the opportunity um as we sit age. What's the opportunity um as we sit age. What's the opportunity um as we sit down with our kids and read these books? down with our kids and read these books? down with our kids and read these books? What's how is it shaping their their What's how is it shaping their their What's how is it shaping their their minds and their imaginations as we start minds and their imaginations as we start minds and their imaginations as we start in those early years with them? in those early years with them? in those early years with them? Well, I think I mean it's doing a lot of Well, I think I mean it's doing a lot of Well, I think I mean it's doing a lot of things all at once. Like I've often things all at once. Like I've often things all at once. Like I've often thought about how one of the reasons thought about how one of the reasons thought about how one of the reasons that I am comfortable with public that I am comfortable with public that I am comfortable with public speaking is because not only was I read speaking is because not only was I read speaking is because not only was I read too, but we read as children to each too, but we read as children to each too, but we read as children to each other as a family as we were old enough other as a family as we were old enough other as a family as we were old enough to. And so you got used to hearing your to. And so you got used to hearing your to. And so you got used to hearing your voice reading and doing different voice, voice reading and doing different voice, voice reading and doing different voice, you know, and all that kind of thing. you know, and all that kind of thing. you know, and all that kind of thing. And it gives you it gives you like, for And it gives you it gives you like, for And it gives you it gives you like, for lack of a better term, oratory lack of a better term, oratory lack of a better term, oratory confidence. I don't know if that's even confidence. I don't know if that's even confidence. I don't know if that's even a term. Um, and so I think that when I a term. Um, and so I think that when I a term. Um, and so I think that when I look at the children's books, so that look at the children's books, so that look at the children's books, so that would be, you know, later on when you're would be, you know, later on when you're would be, you know, later on when you're reading chapter books and things, but I reading chapter books and things, but I reading chapter books and things, but I think even with those earlier years, I think even with those earlier years, I think even with those earlier years, I like books that use words in memorable like books that use words in memorable like books that use words in memorable or beautiful ways.

or beautiful ways. or beautiful ways. So, I either want it to rhyme or I want So, I either want it to rhyme or I want So, I either want it to rhyme or I want it to be hypnotic in the way that it's it to be hypnotic in the way that it's it to be hypnotic in the way that it's written, for lack of a better term. Um, written, for lack of a better term. Um, written, for lack of a better term. Um, I want the illustrations to do work, but I want the illustrations to do work, but I want the illustrations to do work, but I want the words to carry a lot of that I want the words to carry a lot of that I want the words to carry a lot of that work, too. Because, you know, you guys work, too. Because, you know, you guys work, too. Because, you know, you guys have done this as you're authoring a have done this as you're authoring a have done this as you're authoring a book. You know, there's this uh back and book. You know, there's this uh back and book. You know, there's this uh back and forth between what the illustrations are forth between what the illustrations are forth between what the illustrations are communicating and what the words are communicating and what the words are communicating and what the words are communicating. And when I'm reading now communicating. And when I'm reading now communicating. And when I'm reading now to my grandkids, a lot of times I'll be to my grandkids, a lot of times I'll be to my grandkids, a lot of times I'll be like, "This book is all about the like, "This book is all about the like, "This book is all about the illustrations." Like, the words are an illustrations." Like, the words are an illustrations." Like, the words are an afterthought. And it doesn't mean that afterthought. And it doesn't mean that afterthought. And it doesn't mean that there aren't value to those kinds of there aren't value to those kinds of there aren't value to those kinds of books because I think it helps children books because I think it helps children books because I think it helps children really dial in and pay attention to what really dial in and pay attention to what really dial in and pay attention to what they're seeing. But I think my favorite they're seeing. But I think my favorite they're seeing. But I think my favorite combo is when the words and the combo is when the words and the combo is when the words and the illustrations are working together um illustrations are working together um illustrations are working together um seamlessly and the language is crafted. seamlessly and the language is crafted. seamlessly and the language is crafted. It's not um it's not just simple. It's It's not um it's not just simple. It's It's not um it's not just simple. It's it's crafted. What do you guys think? it's crafted. What do you guys think? it's crafted. What do you guys think? >> Well, it's giving them that love of >> Well, it's giving them that love of >> Well, it's giving them that love of language even to hear, you know, it's language even to hear, you know, it's language even to hear, you know, it's why Dr. Seuss was kind of important at why Dr. Seuss was kind of important at why Dr. Seuss was kind of important at at that juncture because it was giving at that juncture because it was giving at that juncture because it was giving >> made up words though.

>> made up words though. >> made up words though. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> I'm like find a rhyming. So he just made >> I'm like find a rhyming. So he just made >> I'm like find a rhyming. So he just made it up. it up. it up. >> I know. But kids love it because they're >> I know. But kids love it because they're >> I know. But kids love it because they're loving to like learn the the syntax and loving to like learn the the syntax and loving to like learn the the syntax and the the sounds of words and like which the the sounds of words and like which the the sounds of words and like which ones are made up and which ones are ones are made up and which ones are ones are made up and which ones are silly and which you know all the silly and which you know all the silly and which you know all the different things. And so, yeah, I think different things. And so, yeah, I think different things. And so, yeah, I think that the words uh that they they really that the words uh that they they really that the words uh that they they really matter and and the the message, this matter and and the the message, this matter and and the the message, this idea that it's shaping what is true and idea that it's shaping what is true and idea that it's shaping what is true and good and beautiful just in the way that good and beautiful just in the way that good and beautiful just in the way that the message is presented. Um, you know, the message is presented. Um, you know, the message is presented. Um, you know, because there are so many kids books because there are so many kids books because there are so many kids books where, you know, maybe the author where, you know, maybe the author where, you know, maybe the author thought it was funny for the kid to be thought it was funny for the kid to be thought it was funny for the kid to be kind of snarky or bratty or whatever. kind of snarky or bratty or whatever. kind of snarky or bratty or whatever. And, you know, that's like that's a And, you know, that's like that's a And, you know, that's like that's a message. That's a message. um versus message. That's a message. um versus message. That's a message. um versus versus what is actually um true and versus what is actually um true and versus what is actually um true and beautiful. Um so I I think it is all of beautiful. Um so I I think it is all of beautiful. Um so I I think it is all of those matter. The illustrations matter, those matter. The illustrations matter, those matter. The illustrations matter, the words matter, the way they're put the words matter, the way they're put the words matter, the way they're put together, and then the message um together, and then the message um together, and then the message um matters. So they're not all the same. matters. So they're not all the same. matters. So they're not all the same. Okay. What about when you guys were Okay. What about when you guys were Okay. What about when you guys were kids? Did you guys have a book that like kids? Did you guys have a book that like kids? Did you guys have a book that like how old were you when you remember how old were you when you remember how old were you when you remember loving a book? And what was it?

loving a book? And what was it? loving a book? And what was it? >> I remember Are you my mother, Pety >> I remember Are you my mother, Pety >> I remember Are you my mother, Pety Eastman? Do you really? Eastman? Do you really? Eastman? Do you really? >> Yeah. because I think I had like an >> Yeah. because I think I had like an >> Yeah. because I think I had like an existential crisis reading it like what existential crisis reading it like what existential crisis reading it like what if my mother just left or I didn't know if my mother just left or I didn't know if my mother just left or I didn't know where she was, you know, and so I just where she was, you know, and so I just where she was, you know, and so I just vividly that's the first book I have a vividly that's the first book I have a vividly that's the first book I have a vivid memory of just wanting that one vivid memory of just wanting that one vivid memory of just wanting that one and then the other I think it's also and then the other I think it's also and then the other I think it's also Pety Eastman the um Go Dog Go. Pety Eastman the um Go Dog Go. Pety Eastman the um Go Dog Go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Where they had the dog party at the end. >> Where they had the dog party at the end. >> Where they had the dog party at the end. >> Do you like looking at that party hat >> Do you like looking at that party hat >> Do you like looking at that party hat and being like so much? Yeah, I really and being like so much? Yeah, I really and being like so much? Yeah, I really actually do like it so so much. actually do like it so so much. actually do like it so so much. >> That's so funny. But it was the same >> That's so funny. But it was the same >> That's so funny. But it was the same thing. It was a good combination of um thing. It was a good combination of um thing. It was a good combination of um thoughtful thoughtful thoughtful words and uh engaging words and uh engaging words and uh engaging illustrations. And you know, I look at illustrations. And you know, I look at illustrations. And you know, I look at those illustrations now, especially those illustrations now, especially those illustrations now, especially compared to some of what comes out today compared to some of what comes out today compared to some of what comes out today for children, and they seem so simple. for children, and they seem so simple. for children, and they seem so simple. They're like line drawings. And it's a They're like line drawings. And it's a They're like line drawings. And it's a good reminder to me. I say this as good reminder to me. I say this as good reminder to me. I say this as someone who's about to have a children's someone who's about to have a children's someone who's about to have a children's book come out that is not anywhere close book come out that is not anywhere close book come out that is not anywhere close to line drawings. It's I think it's to line drawings. It's I think it's to line drawings. It's I think it's visually so beautiful that how um we visually so beautiful that how um we visually so beautiful that how um we sometimes over complicate what we think sometimes over complicate what we think sometimes over complicate what we think children need to have their imaginations children need to have their imaginations children need to have their imaginations stirred. Um yeah, I really liked those.

stirred. Um yeah, I really liked those. stirred. Um yeah, I really liked those. What about you, Melissa? What about you, Melissa? What about you, Melissa? >> Okay, this book was a little bit >> Okay, this book was a little bit >> Okay, this book was a little bit traumatizing. I think that's why I traumatizing. I think that's why I traumatizing. I think that's why I remember it. And it's called The Little remember it. And it's called The Little remember it. And it's called The Little Rabbit Who Wanted Red Wings. Have either Rabbit Who Wanted Red Wings. Have either Rabbit Who Wanted Red Wings. Have either of you read this book? of you read this book? of you read this book? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Okay, so it's a British book. And I'm >> Okay, so it's a British book. And I'm >> Okay, so it's a British book. And I'm like, that's because they fought wars like, that's because they fought wars like, that's because they fought wars and won all the time. These are they and won all the time. These are they and won all the time. These are they want you to know straight out of the want you to know straight out of the want you to know straight out of the gate like It's a little rabbit who sees gate like It's a little rabbit who sees gate like It's a little rabbit who sees a bird and he sees that this little bird a bird and he sees that this little bird a bird and he sees that this little bird can has these wings and so he goes to can has these wings and so he goes to can has these wings and so he goes to the wishing pond and he wishes these the wishing pond and he wishes these the wishing pond and he wishes these wings on and it basically tells the wings on and it basically tells the wings on and it basically tells the story of wanting what isn't yours and story of wanting what isn't yours and story of wanting what isn't yours and then the traumatizing part is he goes then the traumatizing part is he goes then the traumatizing part is he goes home and his mother doesn't recognize home and his mother doesn't recognize home and his mother doesn't recognize him and so I think that's the part where him and so I think that's the part where him and so I think that's the part where yeah notice this is why no one sells yeah notice this is why no one sells yeah notice this is why no one sells this book anymore but this book anymore but this book anymore but >> but I will say I think it really again >> but I will say I think it really again >> but I will say I think it really again affected me I mean I went on to write a affected me I mean I went on to write a affected me I mean I went on to write a book on envy, you know, and this is what book on envy, you know, and this is what book on envy, you know, and this is what I end up because, you know, eventually I end up because, you know, eventually I end up because, you know, eventually he wishes he wishes the wings off. And he wishes he wishes the wings off. And he wishes he wishes the wings off. And it really impacted me, I think, even as it really impacted me, I think, even as it really impacted me, I think, even as a kid, just to think, hey, how you're a kid, just to think, hey, how you're a kid, just to think, hey, how you're made is how you're made, and you should made is how you're made, and you should made is how you're made, and you should be thankful for how you're made. Um, and be thankful for how you're made. Um, and be thankful for how you're made. Um, and not want the little red wings that the not want the little red wings that the not want the little red wings that the bird needs, but you don't need. Anyway, bird needs, but you don't need. Anyway, bird needs, but you don't need. Anyway, I just remember even as a child soaking I just remember even as a child soaking I just remember even as a child soaking in that message and and thinking, "Oh, I in that message and and thinking, "Oh, I in that message and and thinking, "Oh, I want to be who I've been made to be."

want to be who I've been made to be." want to be who I've been made to be." Um, you know, but yeah, it's Um, you know, but yeah, it's Um, you know, but yeah, it's >> that was before its time. That was I >> that was before its time. That was I >> that was before its time. That was I think we might need to resurrect think we might need to resurrect think we might need to resurrect Little Rabbit and the Red Wings. Uh, Little Rabbit and the Red Wings. Uh, Little Rabbit and the Red Wings. Uh, what is Betsy's new book, though? What what is Betsy's new book, though? What what is Betsy's new book, though? What is Betsy's new book that's about that is Betsy's new book that's about that is Betsy's new book that's about that exact thing? It's so good. Um, Arlo is exact thing? It's so good. Um, Arlo is exact thing? It's so good. Um, Arlo is the title off. That's exactly it. And the title off. That's exactly it. And the title off. That's exactly it. And that's the same. There are wings that's the same. There are wings that's the same. There are wings [laughter] in it. And it's so good. And [laughter] in it. And it's so good. And [laughter] in it. And it's so good. And it's about it's about it's about >> interesting. that his mother recognizes. >> interesting. that his mother recognizes. >> interesting. that his mother recognizes. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That his mother recognizes. >> That his mother recognizes. >> That his mother recognizes. >> I bet she does. I bet. >> I bet she does. I bet. >> I bet she does. I bet. >> That's how you write a children's book. >> That's how you write a children's book. >> That's how you write a children's book. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> Do you have a favorite? You know, my >> Do you have a favorite? You know, my >> Do you have a favorite? You know, my favorite was Well, so I guess if it's favorite was Well, so I guess if it's favorite was Well, so I guess if it's Little Kid, all the Richard Scary books. Little Kid, all the Richard Scary books. Little Kid, all the Richard Scary books. I loved all of the illustrations and I loved all of the illustrations and I loved all of the illustrations and kind of to your point, Jen, like those kind of to your point, Jen, like those kind of to your point, Jen, like those illustrations and even today, like even illustrations and even today, like even illustrations and even today, like even with the kids book, like I like that with the kids book, like I like that with the kids book, like I like that idea of kind of Easter eggs being idea of kind of Easter eggs being idea of kind of Easter eggs being hidden, like where you have to look like hidden, like where you have to look like hidden, like where you have to look like look further for what's going on in the look further for what's going on in the look further for what's going on in the in the picture. I think that those are in the picture. I think that those are in the picture. I think that those are super intriguing. I love that. But as a super intriguing. I love that. But as a super intriguing. I love that. But as a slightly older child, um I read slightly older child, um I read slightly older child, um I read Cattywood Lawn probably over a hundred Cattywood Lawn probably over a hundred Cattywood Lawn probably over a hundred times. I mean, I would and and there's a times. I mean, I would and and there's a times. I mean, I would and and there's a there's a whole chapter where there's there's a whole chapter where there's there's a whole chapter where there's something about apples and she eats a something about apples and she eats a something about apples and she eats a lot of apples and I would just have to lot of apples and I would just have to lot of apples and I would just have to go get an apple. Like, it just, you go get an apple. Like, it just, you go get an apple. Like, it just, you know, like it affected me. I was like, I know, like it affected me. I was like, I know, like it affected me. I was like, I want this apple. But even, you know, want this apple. But even, you know, want this apple. But even, you know, just her kind of independent, just her kind of independent, just her kind of independent, adventuresome adventuresome adventuresome self, uh, living up there on the planes, self, uh, living up there on the planes, self, uh, living up there on the planes, you know, I just, yeah, I loved Catty

you know, I just, yeah, I loved Catty you know, I just, yeah, I loved Catty Woodlon. Did either of you read the B is Woodlon. Did either of you read the B is Woodlon. Did either of you read the B is for Betsy series? B is for Betsy. Betsy for Betsy series? B is for Betsy. Betsy for Betsy series? B is for Betsy. Betsy and Tacy. Betsy Tacy into Betsy and and Tacy. Betsy Tacy into Betsy and and Tacy. Betsy Tacy into Betsy and Okay. That was the first series when Okay. That was the first series when Okay. That was the first series when reading all these British books. reading all these British books. reading all these British books. >> I Well, I know. I I don't even know if >> I Well, I know. I I don't even know if >> I Well, I know. I I don't even know if it But that was the first series that it But that was the first series that it But that was the first series that got me as a reader hooked on got me as a reader hooked on got me as a reader hooked on [clears throat] reading. Yeah. Which is [clears throat] reading. Yeah. Which is [clears throat] reading. Yeah. Which is And I think that's a great thing for And I think that's a great thing for And I think that's a great thing for parents. If there's a series, the child parents. If there's a series, the child parents. If there's a series, the child might get roped into the first one and might get roped into the first one and might get roped into the first one and then they love the character, so they then they love the character, so they then they love the character, so they keep reading. And that's a great way to keep reading. And that's a great way to keep reading. And that's a great way to kind of foster literacy as the kids are kind of foster literacy as the kids are kind of foster literacy as the kids are getting older like that. And and I getting older like that. And and I getting older like that. And and I continued I would look for I would look continued I would look for I would look continued I would look for I would look for books that had series because I for books that had series because I for books that had series because I loved like then I got into Ann of Green loved like then I got into Ann of Green loved like then I got into Ann of Green Gables and I loved all of those which Gables and I loved all of those which Gables and I loved all of those which Jen Jen Jen >> what is your confession about Ann of >> what is your confession about Ann of >> what is your confession about Ann of Green Gables. Green Gables. Green Gables. >> I've never read it. >> I've never read it. >> I've never read it. >> I know we were in >> I know we were in >> I know we were in >> you remember cuz when we were in Prince >> you remember cuz when we were in Prince >> you remember cuz when we were in Prince Edward [laughter] Edward [laughter] Edward [laughter] >> I've never read it either. >> I've never read it either. >> I've never read it either. Courtney, Courtney, Courtney, I'm gonna have to make you both read it.

I'm gonna have to make you both read it. I'm gonna have to make you both read it. >> I was busy reading. >> I was busy reading. >> I was busy reading. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> We were in the center of Anam Green. And >> We were in the center of Anam Green. And >> We were in the center of Anam Green. And Jen's just like, "I don't know the Jen's just like, "I don't know the Jen's just like, "I don't know the story." And I'm like, "I posted a a story." And I'm like, "I posted a a story." And I'm like, "I posted a a picture of us there and everybody said, picture of us there and everybody said, picture of us there and everybody said, "Oh, I just knew you were a kindred "Oh, I just knew you were a kindred "Oh, I just knew you were a kindred spirit." And I'm like, "Why is everybody spirit." And I'm like, "Why is everybody spirit." And I'm like, "Why is everybody a friend?" A bosom. You're like, a friend?" A bosom. You're like, a friend?" A bosom. You're like, [laughter] "What is happening here?" [laughter] "What is happening here?" [laughter] "What is happening here?" >> That's what they were called. No, I read >> That's what they were called. No, I read >> That's what they were called. No, I read a lot of other things though. In my a lot of other things though. In my a lot of other things though. In my defense, I grew up with brothers and so defense, I grew up with brothers and so defense, I grew up with brothers and so I read a lot of, you know, like young I read a lot of, you know, like young I read a lot of, you know, like young adult fantasy. A lot of that stuff adult fantasy. A lot of that stuff adult fantasy. A lot of that stuff because that's what my brothers were because that's what my brothers were because that's what my brothers were into and I wanted to read what they were into and I wanted to read what they were into and I wanted to read what they were reading. Yeah. And it's also what's reading. Yeah. And it's also what's reading. Yeah. And it's also what's laying around the house sometimes. It's laying around the house sometimes. It's laying around the house sometimes. It's like, well, they got it for their like, well, they got it for their like, well, they got it for their birthday so now it's here, birthday so now it's here, birthday so now it's here, >> right? Yeah. >> right? Yeah. >> right? Yeah. >> Well, what are favorite books that you >> Well, what are favorite books that you >> Well, what are favorite books that you guys read to your kids? cuz you know guys read to your kids? cuz you know guys read to your kids? cuz you know generations shift and obviously we generations shift and obviously we generations shift and obviously we probably all read books we loved that we probably all read books we loved that we probably all read books we loved that we we loved as a child to our children but we loved as a child to our children but we loved as a child to our children but were there any that you really loved were there any that you really loved were there any that you really loved reading to your own children um when you reading to your own children um when you reading to your own children um when you think back? Yeah. You know what I loved think back? Yeah. You know what I loved think back? Yeah. You know what I loved are the it was the Adam Raccoon series.

are the it was the Adam Raccoon series. are the it was the Adam Raccoon series. Did you guys read Adam Raccoon? I don't Did you guys read Adam Raccoon? I don't Did you guys read Adam Raccoon? I don't know about that. know about that. know about that. >> Do you guys remember the Family Circus >> Do you guys remember the Family Circus >> Do you guys remember the Family Circus cartoon that was in the comic strip? So cartoon that was in the comic strip? So cartoon that was in the comic strip? So that was Bill Bill Keane. Bill Keane that was Bill Bill Keane. Bill Keane that was Bill Bill Keane. Bill Keane wrote that. his son Glenn Keane who is wrote that. his son Glenn Keane who is wrote that. his son Glenn Keane who is like a Disney animator extraordinaire like a Disney animator extraordinaire like a Disney animator extraordinaire who's also a very strong believer. He who's also a very strong believer. He who's also a very strong believer. He wrote the Adam Raccoon series. And then wrote the Adam Raccoon series. And then wrote the Adam Raccoon series. And then if you guys have seen on Jen, I don't if you guys have seen on Jen, I don't if you guys have seen on Jen, I don't think your grandkids are old enough yet, think your grandkids are old enough yet, think your grandkids are old enough yet, but did they did they watch Trash Truck but did they did they watch Trash Truck but did they did they watch Trash Truck on Netflix? Okay, it's precious. Trash on Netflix? Okay, it's precious. Trash on Netflix? Okay, it's precious. Trash Truck is precious. But Trash Truck was Truck is precious. But Trash Truck was Truck is precious. But Trash Truck was written by Bill Well, Glenn Keane's written by Bill Well, Glenn Keane's written by Bill Well, Glenn Keane's grandson, grandson, grandson, >> son and grandson. So it's this four >> son and grandson. So it's this four >> son and grandson. So it's this four generation, but Adam Rune and there's generation, but Adam Rune and there's generation, but Adam Rune and there's King Aaron. He's like the Christ figure King Aaron. He's like the Christ figure King Aaron. He's like the Christ figure and it's just and and Adam Run in the and it's just and and Adam Run in the and it's just and and Adam Run in the Lost Woods when he lets go of his little Lost Woods when he lets go of his little Lost Woods when he lets go of his little red ball as a I cry every time. I just red ball as a I cry every time. I just red ball as a I cry every time. I just love it. Um we I mean we read a ton of love it. Um we I mean we read a ton of love it. Um we I mean we read a ton of stuff. We read um I don't so we actually stuff. We read um I don't so we actually stuff. We read um I don't so we actually also got into a pattern of where we also got into a pattern of where we also got into a pattern of where we would all read not necessarily aloud to would all read not necessarily aloud to would all read not necessarily aloud to each other but we would read the same each other but we would read the same each other but we would read the same series at the same time. And so, um, series at the same time. And so, um, series at the same time. And so, um, like the Black Cauldron, uh, do you know like the Black Cauldron, uh, do you know like the Black Cauldron, uh, do you know those, um, uh, who is it as, uh, his those, um, uh, who is it as, uh, his those, um, uh, who is it as, uh, his last name is Llewellen, the guy who last name is Llewellen, the guy who last name is Llewellen, the guy who wrote them? I'm sorry, Lloyd Alexander.

wrote them? I'm sorry, Lloyd Alexander. wrote them? I'm sorry, Lloyd Alexander. Um, that was one of the first, um, like Um, that was one of the first, um, like Um, that was one of the first, um, like young adult sort of fantasy series that young adult sort of fantasy series that young adult sort of fantasy series that I ever, um, came across. I just found it I ever, um, came across. I just found it I ever, um, came across. I just found it in the library when I was in elementary in the library when I was in elementary in the library when I was in elementary school. And it's a very sweet, um, very school. And it's a very sweet, um, very school. And it's a very sweet, um, very sweet story that has very scary things sweet story that has very scary things sweet story that has very scary things and very uh, rewarding thing. you know, and very uh, rewarding thing. you know, and very uh, rewarding thing. you know, it has all the best elements of um of it has all the best elements of um of it has all the best elements of um of that genre in it. That one. And then that genre in it. That one. And then that genre in it. That one. And then Oversea Under Stone. Did you ever read Oversea Under Stone. Did you ever read Oversea Under Stone. Did you ever read that? Those Oh my gosh, we loved those that? Those Oh my gosh, we loved those that? Those Oh my gosh, we loved those two. Um The Darkest Rising uh trilogy, I two. Um The Darkest Rising uh trilogy, I two. Um The Darkest Rising uh trilogy, I think is what it's called. Um and then think is what it's called. Um and then think is what it's called. Um and then those were from my childhood. And then those were from my childhood. And then those were from my childhood. And then we read um we read um we read um we were all reading Harry Potter we were all reading Harry Potter we were all reading Harry Potter together. together. together. And Mary Kate, she was probably in And Mary Kate, she was probably in And Mary Kate, she was probably in middle school when the last book came middle school when the last book came middle school when the last book came out. She might have been late out. She might have been late out. She might have been late elementary, but you know, it was like we elementary, but you know, it was like we elementary, but you know, it was like we bought one copy of this last book and it bought one copy of this last book and it bought one copy of this last book and it shows up. Amazon delivers it to our shows up. Amazon delivers it to our shows up. Amazon delivers it to our doorstep and everyone had to sign up for doorstep and everyone had to sign up for doorstep and everyone had to sign up for when they got to read it. And Mary Kate when they got to read it. And Mary Kate when they got to read it. And Mary Kate got to read it first because she was got to read it first because she was got to read it first because she was full-on in love with Harry at that full-on in love with Harry at that full-on in love with Harry at that point. And um she would go in a room and point. And um she would go in a room and point. And um she would go in a room and just she just read the whole thing, you just she just read the whole thing, you just she just read the whole thing, you know, from start to finish. And then know, from start to finish. And then know, from start to finish. And then next it went to Matt, but Matt would go next it went to Matt, but Matt would go next it went to Matt, but Matt would go to school and I would grab it and, you to school and I would grab it and, you to school and I would grab it and, you know, like read it all day long. And we know, like read it all day long. And we know, like read it all day long. And we had the best time just waiting for had the best time just waiting for had the best time just waiting for everyone to finish so we could talk everyone to finish so we could talk everyone to finish so we could talk about it. And um and we still do stuff about it. And um and we still do stuff about it. And um and we still do stuff like I mean we still have books like like I mean we still have books like like I mean we still have books like that, you know, that we all read at the that, you know, that we all read at the that, you know, that we all read at the same time. Um same time. Um same time. Um >> I love that.

>> I love that. >> I love that. >> It just has a book club. >> It just has a book club. >> It just has a book club. >> It is. It is. Yeah. My son Matt is a >> It is. It is. Yeah. My son Matt is a >> It is. It is. Yeah. My son Matt is a compulsive book club joiner and so the compulsive book club joiner and so the compulsive book club joiner and so the [laughter] fact that he will also have [laughter] fact that he will also have [laughter] fact that he will also have one with the fam is is a is a big deal. one with the fam is is a is a big deal. one with the fam is is a is a big deal. We try to take his I'm reading Hannah We try to take his I'm reading Hannah We try to take his I'm reading Hannah Coulter now at his recommendation. Coulter now at his recommendation. Coulter now at his recommendation. >> My favorite favorite of the It's my >> My favorite favorite of the It's my >> My favorite favorite of the It's my first time to read Wendel Berry. first time to read Wendel Berry. first time to read Wendel Berry. >> Okay. It's my favorite of the whole Fort >> Okay. It's my favorite of the whole Fort >> Okay. It's my favorite of the whole Fort William. William. William. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I know. We have a joke in our family >> I know. We have a joke in our family >> I know. We have a joke in our family about um Austin is my oldest very about um Austin is my oldest very about um Austin is my oldest very voracious reader. Always has been even voracious reader. Always has been even voracious reader. Always has been even as a young child. And we would share as a young child. And we would share as a young child. And we would share books back and forth. he would read them books back and forth. he would read them books back and forth. he would read them and that I would read, you know, and and that I would read, you know, and and that I would read, you know, and we'd talk about them. And so there was a we'd talk about them. And so there was a we'd talk about them. And so there was a day he came down the stairs. I was day he came down the stairs. I was day he came down the stairs. I was sitting in the chair reading and he sitting in the chair reading and he sitting in the chair reading and he goes, "Mom, have you gotten to the part goes, "Mom, have you gotten to the part goes, "Mom, have you gotten to the part yet where you find out about that the yet where you find out about that the yet where you find out about that the guy is not really the guy?" guy is not really the guy?" guy is not really the guy?" >> And I was like, "Heck no. >> And I was like, "Heck no. >> And I was like, "Heck no. >> What did you No. I mean, so it's like >> What did you No. I mean, so it's like >> What did you No. I mean, so it's like still a joke in our like in our still a joke in our like in our still a joke in our like in our relationship." Like, "Oh, yeah. Well, relationship." Like, "Oh, yeah. Well, relationship." Like, "Oh, yeah. Well, did you find out yet that like this did you find out yet that like this did you find out yet that like this major plot twist [laughter] major plot twist [laughter] major plot twist [laughter] >> worthy of grounding that child for doing >> worthy of grounding that child for doing >> worthy of grounding that child for doing that?" that?" that?" >> Ground it for me. I know. terrible. >> Ground it for me. I know. terrible. >> Ground it for me. I know. terrible. Well, Matt likes Matt likes the real Well, Matt likes Matt likes the real Well, Matt likes Matt likes the real gut-wrenching stories, you know, and so gut-wrenching stories, you know, and so gut-wrenching stories, you know, and so he I will never forget this. He was he I will never forget this. He was he I will never forget this. He was engaged to Amber. They were not yet engaged to Amber. They were not yet engaged to Amber. They were not yet married and they were uh it was married and they were uh it was married and they were uh it was Christmas time and I'm decorating the Christmas time and I'm decorating the Christmas time and I'm decorating the Christmas tree in the dining room and Christmas tree in the dining room and Christmas tree in the dining room and the two of them are reading. They like the two of them are reading. They like the two of them are reading. They like to read books to each other. So, they to read books to each other. So, they to read books to each other. So, they are reading um of mice and men to each are reading um of mice and men to each are reading um of mice and men to each other and it's the last chapter and other and it's the last chapter and other and it's the last chapter and Amber's just reading along and reading Amber's just reading along and reading Amber's just reading along and reading along and I am dying. I'm in the dining along and I am dying. I'm in the dining along and I am dying. I'm in the dining room just going, "Oh, make it stop. Make room just going, "Oh, make it stop. Make room just going, "Oh, make it stop. Make it stop." And all of a sudden, I just it stop." And all of a sudden, I just it stop." And all of a sudden, I just hear her say, "Oh, no."

hear her say, "Oh, no." hear her say, "Oh, no." [laughter] And I'm like, "Matt, what is [laughter] And I'm like, "Matt, what is [laughter] And I'm like, "Matt, what is wrong with you? You want this woman to wrong with you? You want this woman to wrong with you? You want this woman to go through the entire wedding with you. go through the entire wedding with you. go through the entire wedding with you. Stop bringing these books [laughter] Stop bringing these books [laughter] Stop bringing these books [laughter] out. They're such crushers. out. They're such crushers. out. They're such crushers. >> It is such a crusher." Out of nowhere. >> It is such a crusher." Out of nowhere. >> It is such a crusher." Out of nowhere. >> Oh, so bad. [laughter] >> Oh, so bad. [laughter] >> Oh, so bad. [laughter] I remember Mike and I actually we read I remember Mike and I actually we read I remember Mike and I actually we read the Lord of the Rings to one another. the Lord of the Rings to one another. the Lord of the Rings to one another. This is we lived in Scotland and so I This is we lived in Scotland and so I This is we lived in Scotland and so I had never read it because I'm sorry had never read it because I'm sorry had never read it because I'm sorry Tolkien describes trees a lot like every Tolkien describes trees a lot like every Tolkien describes trees a lot like every blade of grass. I mean trust me blade of grass. I mean trust me blade of grass. I mean trust me >> that whole Tom Bombadil thing I mean >> that whole Tom Bombadil thing I mean >> that whole Tom Bombadil thing I mean >> I know there's [clears throat] a lot but >> I know there's [clears throat] a lot but >> I know there's [clears throat] a lot but when we got to the end I could not when we got to the end I could not when we got to the end I could not finish when you know when Froto's finish when you know when Froto's finish when you know when Froto's talking about the Shire was saved but talking about the Shire was saved but talking about the Shire was saved but not for him. Yeah, I'm just I I think not for him. Yeah, I'm just I I think not for him. Yeah, I'm just I I think that's actually good as adults to read that's actually good as adults to read that's actually good as adults to read books out loud together, you know. I books out loud together, you know. I books out loud together, you know. I mean, if you It's It's something we've mean, if you It's It's something we've mean, if you It's It's something we've kind of lost culturally, you know, but kind of lost culturally, you know, but kind of lost culturally, you know, but it's such a great shared it's such a great shared it's such a great shared >> experience, you know? It's the original >> experience, you know? It's the original >> experience, you know? It's the original Netflix binge, you know? I mean, it was Netflix binge, you know? I mean, it was Netflix binge, you know? I mean, it was like, do you remember that? I just like, do you remember that? I just like, do you remember that? I just remember thinking, we cannot go to bed remember thinking, we cannot go to bed remember thinking, we cannot go to bed until we read another chapter of this. I until we read another chapter of this. I until we read another chapter of this. I know.

know. know. >> Yeah. It's so good. Okay, I'm going to >> Yeah. It's so good. Okay, I'm going to >> Yeah. It's so good. Okay, I'm going to pivot just a little bit. Okay. talk pivot just a little bit. Okay. talk pivot just a little bit. Okay. talk about children's Bibles or children's about children's Bibles or children's about children's Bibles or children's books that retell Bible stories, right, books that retell Bible stories, right, books that retell Bible stories, right, for children. So, how are they helpful? for children. So, how are they helpful? for children. So, how are they helpful? And is there anything that parents uh And is there anything that parents uh And is there anything that parents uh need to be aware of as they consider need to be aware of as they consider need to be aware of as they consider these books, children's Bibles for your these books, children's Bibles for your these books, children's Bibles for your children? children? children? >> I love I mean, here's what's funny. I >> I love I mean, here's what's funny. I >> I love I mean, here's what's funny. I don't know how you guys feel about this. don't know how you guys feel about this. don't know how you guys feel about this. When we when my kids were little, there When we when my kids were little, there When we when my kids were little, there were so few children's Bibles. I mean, were so few children's Bibles. I mean, were so few children's Bibles. I mean, there were there were about three there were there were about three there were there were about three options. So now there are so many I mean options. So now there are so many I mean options. So now there are so many I mean and I loved um oh the Jesus story book and I loved um oh the Jesus story book and I loved um oh the Jesus story book bible I still just love what she did bible I still just love what she did bible I still just love what she did with that but I never actually got to with that but I never actually got to with that but I never actually got to read it to my kids. They were already read it to my kids. They were already read it to my kids. They were already you know they were you know I don't I you know they were you know I don't I you know they were you know I don't I don't think it was around when when they don't think it was around when when they don't think it was around when when they were growing up. I I will say this and were growing up. I I will say this and were growing up. I I will say this and this is more because of Veggie Tales. Um this is more because of Veggie Tales. Um this is more because of Veggie Tales. Um like I still when I think of Nineveh like I still when I think of Nineveh like I still when I think of Nineveh think of fish slappers. I mean, do you think of fish slappers. I mean, do you think of fish slappers. I mean, do you guys like I mean like [laughter] it so I guys like I mean like [laughter] it so I guys like I mean like [laughter] it so I I think the reality is I think the reality is I think the reality is >> No, I do with Jericho the little peas on >> No, I do with Jericho the little peas on >> No, I do with Jericho the little peas on the wall, you know?

the wall, you know? the wall, you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then Nebuchadnezzar, it's the bunny. >> And then Nebuchadnezzar, it's the bunny. >> And then Nebuchadnezzar, it's the bunny. The bunny. Yeah. Bow down the bunny or The bunny. Yeah. Bow down the bunny or The bunny. Yeah. Bow down the bunny or what? You know, like I have I I think what? You know, like I have I I think what? You know, like I have I I think what what's what's so great about what what's what's so great about what what's what's so great about children's Bibles is they help our kids children's Bibles is they help our kids children's Bibles is they help our kids start developing an understanding of the start developing an understanding of the start developing an understanding of the characters. Oh, there was a guy named characters. Oh, there was a guy named characters. Oh, there was a guy named Moses. Okay, there's this guy named Moses. Okay, there's this guy named Moses. Okay, there's this guy named Pharaoh. Oh, that's what a locust looks Pharaoh. Oh, that's what a locust looks Pharaoh. Oh, that's what a locust looks like. Those are frogs that, you know, um like. Those are frogs that, you know, um like. Those are frogs that, you know, um like they start gaining some sort of like they start gaining some sort of like they start gaining some sort of understanding of the characters of the understanding of the characters of the understanding of the characters of the Bible. So, I see a real positive with Bible. So, I see a real positive with Bible. So, I see a real positive with that. The other reality is is it's an that. The other reality is is it's an that. The other reality is is it's an incomplete picture of those characters incomplete picture of those characters incomplete picture of those characters and and you know, we tend to just they and and you know, we tend to just they and and you know, we tend to just they do tend to tend towards moralism a lot do tend to tend towards moralism a lot do tend to tend towards moralism a lot of the time. Um the stories tend to be of the time. Um the stories tend to be of the time. Um the stories tend to be be like David. um you know be like with be like David. um you know be like with be like David. um you know be like with David and Goliath not with David and David and Goliath not with David and David and Goliath not with David and Bashibba probably right [laughter] that Bashibba probably right [laughter] that Bashibba probably right [laughter] that one they never mentioned that one one they never mentioned that one one they never mentioned that one there's think of the stories you're there's think of the stories you're there's think of the stories you're never putting in yeah best is going to never putting in yeah best is going to never putting in yeah best is going to get zero air time get zero air time get zero air time >> doesn't get in there and so I think >> doesn't get in there and so I think >> doesn't get in there and so I think that's the I think they can be really that's the I think they can be really that's the I think they can be really helpful in their place and I think helpful in their place and I think helpful in their place and I think they're also limited in what they can do they're also limited in what they can do they're also limited in what they can do so that's that's my I had a seminary so that's that's my I had a seminary so that's that's my I had a seminary professor say that as we're teaching professor say that as we're teaching professor say that as we're teaching children whether it's in Sunday school children whether it's in Sunday school children whether it's in Sunday school or in a children's Bible that we don't or in a children's Bible that we don't or in a children's Bible that we don't ever want. We just want the door to keep ever want. We just want the door to keep ever want. We just want the door to keep revolving and they just get more and revolving and they just get more and revolving and they just get more and more clarity on the story. We don't ever more clarity on the story. We don't ever more clarity on the story. We don't ever want it to be a bait and switch where want it to be a bait and switch where want it to be a bait and switch where they get to be 20 years old and they they get to be 20 years old and they they get to be 20 years old and they read, they're like, "Wait a minute, read, they're like, "Wait a minute, read, they're like, "Wait a minute, that's not what the story was really

that's not what the story was really that's not what the story was really about." So, it's okay that it's a about." So, it's okay that it's a about." So, it's okay that it's a simplified version as long as it's the simplified version as long as it's the simplified version as long as it's the the direction, the thing that they can the direction, the thing that they can the direction, the thing that they can gain is just more understanding on the gain is just more understanding on the gain is just more understanding on the same story, not a whole new story. And I same story, not a whole new story. And I same story, not a whole new story. And I thought that was a really good like way thought that was a really good like way thought that was a really good like way to think about it. to think about it. to think about it. >> Yeah, I think um they're a good starting >> Yeah, I think um they're a good starting >> Yeah, I think um they're a good starting point. I do think that there is a point. I do think that there is a point. I do think that there is a mentality among Christian parents that mentality among Christian parents that mentality among Christian parents that they need age appropriate resources for they need age appropriate resources for they need age appropriate resources for children beyond the point that they do. children beyond the point that they do. children beyond the point that they do. And so like sure a children's Bible is And so like sure a children's Bible is And so like sure a children's Bible is great for very young children and then great for very young children and then great for very young children and then as they're getting a older to where as they're getting a older to where as they're getting a older to where they're able to actually read the Bible they're able to actually read the Bible they're able to actually read the Bible themselves. um read along with you like themselves. um read along with you like themselves. um read along with you like read the Bible as a family, you know, read the Bible as a family, you know, read the Bible as a family, you know, because that's a harder um that's harder because that's a harder um that's harder because that's a harder um that's harder reading than than the books that you reading than than the books that you reading than than the books that you might, you know, be picking up to read might, you know, be picking up to read might, you know, be picking up to read as a family that are fiction or as a family that are fiction or as a family that are fiction or whatever. But it also builds confidence. whatever. But it also builds confidence. whatever. But it also builds confidence. And if you were to take them, you know, And if you were to take them, you know, And if you were to take them, you know, read as a family the story of um David read as a family the story of um David read as a family the story of um David and Goliath from the scriptures and and Goliath from the scriptures and and Goliath from the scriptures and compare it to what was in the children's compare it to what was in the children's compare it to what was in the children's Bible, I think that'd be an interesting Bible, I think that'd be an interesting Bible, I think that'd be an interesting opportunity to have with your kids as opportunity to have with your kids as opportunity to have with your kids as they're getting older. Um I was looking they're getting older. Um I was looking they're getting older. Um I was looking at a children's Bible recently that out at a children's Bible recently that out at a children's Bible recently that out of the entire book they had tried to of the entire book they had tried to of the entire book they had tried to sample from every portion of scripture sample from every portion of scripture sample from every portion of scripture in the in the children's which is in the in the children's which is in the in the children's which is admirable but for the book of judges admirable but for the book of judges admirable but for the book of judges they had chosen Samson they had chosen Samson they had chosen Samson and presented him as a hero and so and presented him as a hero and so and presented him as a hero and so there's stuff like that where it's like there's stuff like that where it's like there's stuff like that where it's like you really you really want to make sure you really you really want to make sure you really you really want to make sure you have a children's Bible that is you have a children's Bible that is you have a children's Bible that is accurate to who the person in the story

accurate to who the person in the story accurate to who the person in the story they are going to be story driven. they are going to be story driven. they are going to be story driven. They're going to go to the narratives. They're going to go to the narratives. They're going to go to the narratives. Um, and we want them to that's good. But Um, and we want them to that's good. But Um, and we want them to that's good. But you want to make sure that it's you want to make sure that it's you want to make sure that it's representative. And I think any any representative. And I think any any representative. And I think any any children's Bible that's teaching meta children's Bible that's teaching meta children's Bible that's teaching meta narrative or the or the big story of the narrative or the or the big story of the narrative or the or the big story of the Bible for for lack of a better term is Bible for for lack of a better term is Bible for for lack of a better term is going to serve your children better than going to serve your children better than going to serve your children better than one that's just cherrypicked stories one that's just cherrypicked stories one that's just cherrypicked stories from here and there. But um you know from here and there. But um you know from here and there. But um you know what can often happen is we start with a what can often happen is we start with a what can often happen is we start with a children's Bible and we move from there children's Bible and we move from there children's Bible and we move from there to elementary children's devotional to elementary children's devotional to elementary children's devotional material and then middle school and high material and then middle school and high material and then middle school and high school devotional material. And we school devotional material. And we school devotional material. And we forget that children are able to forget that children are able to forget that children are able to encounter the Bible on its own terms encounter the Bible on its own terms encounter the Bible on its own terms without us turning it into all without us turning it into all without us turning it into all devotional material. And I think that's devotional material. And I think that's devotional material. And I think that's actually just a good word about having a actually just a good word about having a actually just a good word about having a lot of Bibles in your house. Um, you lot of Bibles in your house. Um, you lot of Bibles in your house. Um, you know, I never sat down with my kids and know, I never sat down with my kids and know, I never sat down with my kids and said, "You need to start reading this said, "You need to start reading this said, "You need to start reading this every day." Yeah. But all of mine slowly every day." Yeah. But all of mine slowly every day." Yeah. But all of mine slowly over time just started to. I think they over time just started to. I think they over time just started to. I think they got really they were like, "No, no, I got really they were like, "No, no, I got really they were like, "No, no, I want to know what it says for myself. want to know what it says for myself. want to know what it says for myself. I'm tired of hearing it from you people.

I'm tired of hearing it from you people. I'm tired of hearing it from you people. So like and that's great, you know, but So like and that's great, you know, but So like and that's great, you know, but to make sure that you just have Bibles to make sure that you just have Bibles to make sure that you just have Bibles in your house and I think it's a great in your house and I think it's a great in your house and I think it's a great gift. I mean, what age would you give it gift. I mean, what age would you give it gift. I mean, what age would you give it would you give a child about? Seven, would you give a child about? Seven, would you give a child about? Seven, eight, and say, "Hey, you can start." I eight, and say, "Hey, you can start." I eight, and say, "Hey, you can start." I just gave Mickey one, my I gave one of just gave Mickey one, my I gave one of just gave Mickey one, my I gave one of my grandsons one for his kindergarten my grandsons one for his kindergarten my grandsons one for his kindergarten graduation, and it's so precious. It's graduation, and it's so precious. It's graduation, and it's so precious. It's sitting they're living with us right sitting they're living with us right sitting they're living with us right now, and it's propped up right next to now, and it's propped up right next to now, and it's propped up right next to um his um his bed. is just the most um his um his bed. is just the most um his um his bed. is just the most precious thing. So, he's not reading it precious thing. So, he's not reading it precious thing. So, he's not reading it yet, but it's right there. It's kind of yet, but it's right there. It's kind of yet, but it's right there. It's kind of this treasured thing and it's just this treasured thing and it's just this treasured thing and it's just really um really precious. I will just really um really precious. I will just really um really precious. I will just do one little caveat on that, you know, do one little caveat on that, you know, do one little caveat on that, you know, because I've got like friends in because I've got like friends in because I've got like friends in different parts of the world that to different parts of the world that to different parts of the world that to have one Bible for their family is a have one Bible for their family is a have one Bible for their family is a treasure. It is a treasure. And so, I treasure. It is a treasure. And so, I treasure. It is a treasure. And so, I think that, you know, just to add on to think that, you know, just to add on to think that, you know, just to add on to what you said, I would say that it's what you said, I would say that it's what you said, I would say that it's it's not like that you have to have a it's not like that you have to have a it's not like that you have to have a lot of Bibles in the house. It's that lot of Bibles in the house. It's that lot of Bibles in the house. It's that they see you reading it because it is they see you reading it because it is they see you reading it because it is the source of life. And so, um, you the source of life. And so, um, you the source of life. And so, um, you know, that as that we just need to have know, that as that we just need to have know, that as that we just need to have a Bible and have it open, um, you know, a Bible and have it open, um, you know, a Bible and have it open, um, you know, is is important cuz I know some of some is is important cuz I know some of some is is important cuz I know some of some of my friends in Kassumu listen to the of my friends in Kassumu listen to the of my friends in Kassumu listen to the deep dish. And so, I want to say just deep dish. And so, I want to say just deep dish. And so, I want to say just have your Bible open. I know it's have your Bible open. I know it's have your Bible open. I know it's precious. I love it. Love my friends precious. I love it. Love my friends precious. I love it. Love my friends there. Well, and along along the lines there. Well, and along along the lines there. Well, and along along the lines of the children's Bible, too, like my um of the children's Bible, too, like my um of the children's Bible, too, like my um my two older grandchildren that are here my two older grandchildren that are here my two older grandchildren that are here in town, they each have they have a a in town, they each have they have a a in town, they each have they have a a copy uh each of them has their own copy copy uh each of them has their own copy copy uh each of them has their own copy of the same children's Bible and it sits of the same children's Bible and it sits of the same children's Bible and it sits on the table next to the breakfast table on the table next to the breakfast table on the table next to the breakfast table right next to mom and dad's Bibles and

right next to mom and dad's Bibles and right next to mom and dad's Bibles and in the morning they all sit and read in the morning they all sit and read in the morning they all sit and read their Bibles together. their Bibles together. their Bibles together. >> That is amazing. >> That is amazing. >> That is amazing. >> It is the sweet. Now, Jeff is missing >> It is the sweet. Now, Jeff is missing >> It is the sweet. Now, Jeff is missing the cover. He's torn the cover off, you the cover. He's torn the cover off, you the cover. He's torn the cover off, you know, but I mean it's like that's their know, but I mean it's like that's their know, but I mean it's like that's their something like that. [laughter] But something like that. [laughter] But something like that. [laughter] But there is and it's and it's not even there is and it's and it's not even there is and it's and it's not even because Matt and Amber are like we're because Matt and Amber are like we're because Matt and Amber are like we're going to have Bible time now. It's going to have Bible time now. It's going to have Bible time now. It's because kids naturally want to imitate because kids naturally want to imitate because kids naturally want to imitate what their parents are doing. And this what their parents are doing. And this what their parents are doing. And this is a vehicle for a small child to be is a vehicle for a small child to be is a vehicle for a small child to be like, look, I'm having my my Bible time like, look, I'm having my my Bible time like, look, I'm having my my Bible time as well. It's really sweet. We're as well. It's really sweet. We're as well. It's really sweet. We're getting ready to go to a break, but I getting ready to go to a break, but I getting ready to go to a break, but I want to ask one question before we do. want to ask one question before we do. want to ask one question before we do. How do the children's books we pick as How do the children's books we pick as How do the children's books we pick as parents, and I'm talking about parents, and I'm talking about parents, and I'm talking about children's books, you know, um how do children's books, you know, um how do children's books, you know, um how do they help and influence parents of what they help and influence parents of what they help and influence parents of what we need to remember? Um, do and this is we need to remember? Um, do and this is we need to remember? Um, do and this is we'll talk more about our books right we'll talk more about our books right we'll talk more about our books right after the break, but like do you write after the break, but like do you write after the break, but like do you write with the parent in mind in shaping their with the parent in mind in shaping their with the parent in mind in shaping their imagination and heart as well? I guess imagination and heart as well? I guess imagination and heart as well? I guess that's my question to tea. that's my question to tea. that's my question to tea. >> Well, as somebody who became a parent at >> Well, as somebody who became a parent at >> Well, as somebody who became a parent at the same time that I became a Christian, the same time that I became a Christian, the same time that I became a Christian, um, you know, that was those children's um, you know, that was those children's um, you know, that was those children's books and it was the little cassette books and it was the little cassette books and it was the little cassette tapes that we were listening to. I mean, tapes that we were listening to. I mean, tapes that we were listening to. I mean, those were the things that's where I was those were the things that's where I was those were the things that's where I was getting my theology. That's where I was getting my theology. That's where I was getting my theology. That's where I was understanding. I mean, I was memorizing understanding. I mean, I was memorizing understanding. I mean, I was memorizing scripture along with GT and the Halo scripture along with GT and the Halo scripture along with GT and the Halo Express because that was, you know, kind Express because that was, you know, kind Express because that was, you know, kind of some of my first exposure to it. And of some of my first exposure to it. And of some of my first exposure to it. And so, yeah, I have a huge heart for that.

so, yeah, I have a huge heart for that. so, yeah, I have a huge heart for that. Um, because I know I know how much it Um, because I know I know how much it Um, because I know I know how much it informed and impacted me. informed and impacted me. informed and impacted me. >> Well, I think that that uh Sally Lloyd >> Well, I think that that uh Sally Lloyd >> Well, I think that that uh Sally Lloyd Jones's Bible, you hear you hear adults Jones's Bible, you hear you hear adults Jones's Bible, you hear you hear adults all the time talk about how they didn't all the time talk about how they didn't all the time talk about how they didn't understand a story until they read it in understand a story until they read it in understand a story until they read it in there. Uh, and she did that on purpose. there. Uh, and she did that on purpose. there. Uh, and she did that on purpose. She absolutely did that on purpose. And She absolutely did that on purpose. And She absolutely did that on purpose. And so I had that in mind I think as I sat so I had that in mind I think as I sat so I had that in mind I think as I sat down to write too is it's like it's not down to write too is it's like it's not down to write too is it's like it's not just that I want children to learn this just that I want children to learn this just that I want children to learn this story that they probably might not story that they probably might not story that they probably might not otherwise hear. It's I want parents to otherwise hear. It's I want parents to otherwise hear. It's I want parents to understand the significance of it too. understand the significance of it too. understand the significance of it too. Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely say um I Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely say um I Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely say um I can trace my books back to my kids books can trace my books back to my kids books can trace my books back to my kids books even that I was working on like wherever even that I was working on like wherever even that I was working on like wherever you go I want you to know it was I was you go I want you to know it was I was you go I want you to know it was I was living in a world where I felt like living in a world where I felt like living in a world where I felt like everyone was consumed with what's my kid everyone was consumed with what's my kid everyone was consumed with what's my kid going to be it sometimes like it was going to be it sometimes like it was going to be it sometimes like it was just like do they have the right GPA are just like do they have the right GPA are just like do they have the right GPA are they getting in the right school are they getting in the right school are they getting in the right school are they like what was obsessing the hearts they like what was obsessing the hearts they like what was obsessing the hearts and minds of the parents was sometimes and minds of the parents was sometimes and minds of the parents was sometimes just just just >> what income level are they going to be >> what income level are they going to be >> what income level are they going to be living at living at living at >> and it was kind of like, >> and it was kind of like, >> and it was kind of like, do our kids just know? And every one of do our kids just know? And every one of do our kids just know? And every one of these parents would have said this, the these parents would have said this, the these parents would have said this, the most important thing is that their child most important thing is that their child most important thing is that their child loves Jesus. But so often we don't loves Jesus. But so often we don't loves Jesus. But so often we don't actually say that to our children. We're actually say that to our children. We're actually say that to our children. We're saying a thousand other things to our saying a thousand other things to our saying a thousand other things to our children each day. And so I I think children each day. And so I I think children each day. And so I I think children's books are such a wonderful children's books are such a wonderful children's books are such a wonderful way for us to be reminded and to way for us to be reminded and to way for us to be reminded and to actually speak things that we want to actually speak things that we want to actually speak things that we want to say to our children. Um, and in hopes say to our children. Um, and in hopes say to our children. Um, and in hopes that they'll remember when they're that they'll remember when they're that they'll remember when they're older, too, you know. And that's why I older, too, you know. And that's why I older, too, you know. And that's why I love rhyme. I'm a big I I think rhyme

love rhyme. I'm a big I I think rhyme love rhyme. I'm a big I I think rhyme just gets into a part of the brain that just gets into a part of the brain that just gets into a part of the brain that you you live with the rest of your life. you you live with the rest of your life. you you live with the rest of your life. I still remember, do you'all remember I still remember, do you'all remember I still remember, do you'all remember Shell Silverstein the poem his his book Shell Silverstein the poem his his book Shell Silverstein the poem his his book of poetry? Like I can right now be like of poetry? Like I can right now be like of poetry? Like I can right now be like I cannot go to school today said little I cannot go to school today said little I cannot go to school today said little Peggy and May I have the measles and the Peggy and May I have the measles and the Peggy and May I have the measles and the most gash rush and purple bust from M most gash rush and purple bust from M most gash rush and purple bust from M like sick like that [laughter] was that like sick like that [laughter] was that like sick like that [laughter] was that was you know was you know was you know >> Melissa was just wrapping shell silver >> Melissa was just wrapping shell silver >> Melissa was just wrapping shell silver [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> but like I memorized it. I read it so >> but like I memorized it. I read it so >> but like I memorized it. I read it so much because I thought it was such a fun much because I thought it was such a fun much because I thought it was such a fun poem and I think um I I think the we poem and I think um I I think the we poem and I think um I I think the we have the kids books we pick for our have the kids books we pick for our have the kids books we pick for our children have that ability. What do we children have that ability. What do we children have that ability. What do we want to fill their minds with? um at want to fill their minds with? um at want to fill their minds with? um at that age. It's such an opportunity. So, that age. It's such an opportunity. So, that age. It's such an opportunity. So, well, we're going to take a break and well, we're going to take a break and well, we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back and I then we're going to come back and I then we're going to come back and I can't wait to ask you guys about your can't wait to ask you guys about your can't wait to ask you guys about your upcoming kids books and hear a little upcoming kids books and hear a little upcoming kids books and hear a little bit more about them. So, let's take a bit more about them. So, let's take a bit more about them. So, let's take a break and then we'll be back. Okay. So, break and then we'll be back. Okay. So, break and then we'll be back. Okay. So, both of you have written a new both of you have written a new both of you have written a new children's book. Um Courtney Winer's children's book. Um Courtney Winer's children's book. Um Courtney Winer's coming out September 22nd, so just about coming out September 22nd, so just about coming out September 22nd, so just about in a couple of days. Okay. And Jen in a couple of days. Okay. And Jen in a couple of days. Okay. And Jen Winer's coming out October 1st. Okay.

Winer's coming out October 1st. Okay. Winer's coming out October 1st. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, we've got I mean I feel Okay. Okay. So, we've got I mean I feel Okay. Okay. So, we've got I mean I feel like we're all pregnant. So, September like we're all pregnant. So, September like we're all pregnant. So, September [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] September October and I'm October. I'm September October and I'm October. I'm September October and I'm October. I'm October 6th. [laughter] October 6th. [laughter] October 6th. [laughter] >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Wait till Jeff hears. >> Wait till Jeff hears. >> Wait till Jeff hears. >> He's so excited. [laughter] Okay. So, um >> He's so excited. [laughter] Okay. So, um >> He's so excited. [laughter] Okay. So, um Courtney, you've just written one with a Courtney, you've just written one with a Courtney, you've just written one with a very special co-author, which I think very special co-author, which I think very special co-author, which I think this is the sweetest thing ever. So tell this is the sweetest thing ever. So tell this is the sweetest thing ever. So tell us about your much more famous than your us about your much more famous than your us about your much more famous than your co-author that you're you [laughter] co-author that you're you [laughter] co-author that you're you [laughter] know like he he's really the one who's know like he he's really the one who's know like he he's really the one who's bringing this book to us and I mean and bringing this book to us and I mean and bringing this book to us and I mean and and your horse is is in the book as and your horse is is in the book as and your horse is is in the book as well. So well. So well. So >> well yeah yeah MIJ is getting featured >> well yeah yeah MIJ is getting featured >> well yeah yeah MIJ is getting featured quite a bit um in in all of it. But uh I quite a bit um in in all of it. But uh I quite a bit um in in all of it. But uh I was able to write this book with my was able to write this book with my was able to write this book with my oldest grandson Bo who we started the oldest grandson Bo who we started the oldest grandson Bo who we started the book when he was seven. He just turned book when he was seven. He just turned book when he was seven. He just turned nine and he has been a huge part of not nine and he has been a huge part of not nine and he has been a huge part of not only developing like where the narrative only developing like where the narrative only developing like where the narrative arc was going to go but naming the arc was going to go but naming the arc was going to go but naming the characters, picking out, you know, characters, picking out, you know, characters, picking out, you know, exactly what Andy, the main character, exactly what Andy, the main character, exactly what Andy, the main character, is is struggling with some of the is is struggling with some of the is is struggling with some of the different scenarios. Um, he had some different scenarios. Um, he had some different scenarios. Um, he had some very specific ideas on some of the very specific ideas on some of the very specific ideas on some of the different scenes. And one of them he different scenes. And one of them he different scenes. And one of them he said, I had I had put something or maybe said, I had I had put something or maybe said, I had I had put something or maybe the illustrator had come back with a the illustrator had come back with a the illustrator had come back with a scene of his dad playing checkers. And scene of his dad playing checkers. And scene of his dad playing checkers. And he goes, you know, my dad doesn't even he goes, you know, my dad doesn't even he goes, you know, my dad doesn't even know how to play checkers. He goes, "We know how to play checkers. He goes, "We know how to play checkers. He goes, "We play chess." And um so I had to of play chess." And um so I had to of play chess." And um so I had to of course go to his dad and I was like, "So course go to his dad and I was like, "So course go to his dad and I was like, "So Bo doesn't think you know how to play Bo doesn't think you know how to play Bo doesn't think you know how to play checkers." And Austin's [laughter] like, checkers." And Austin's [laughter] like, checkers." And Austin's [laughter] like, "I know how to play checkers." I'm like, "I know how to play checkers." I'm like, "I know how to play checkers." I'm like, "I know you know how to play checkers."

"I know you know how to play checkers." "I know you know how to play checkers." But we had So if you look at the But we had So if you look at the But we had So if you look at the illustration in the book, it is a man illustration in the book, it is a man illustration in the book, it is a man playing chess because because his dad playing chess because because his dad playing chess because because his dad doesn't know how to play checkers. But doesn't know how to play checkers. But doesn't know how to play checkers. But it was just so fun to do together. And it was just so fun to do together. And it was just so fun to do together. And as we're kind of prepping for the launch as we're kind of prepping for the launch as we're kind of prepping for the launch of this, he's really in it. He attended of this, he's really in it. He attended of this, he's really in it. He attended a marketing meeting uh with B&H. He came a marketing meeting uh with B&H. He came a marketing meeting uh with B&H. He came with his shirt buttoned all the way to with his shirt buttoned all the way to with his shirt buttoned all the way to the top. Um had a marketing idea for the top. Um had a marketing idea for the top. Um had a marketing idea for them. He said, "You know, if you could them. He said, "You know, if you could them. He said, "You know, if you could just like put a picture of the book on a just like put a picture of the book on a just like put a picture of the book on a piece of paper and then describe it, I piece of paper and then describe it, I piece of paper and then describe it, I could put those all over town." So his could put those all over town." So his could put those all over town." So his marketing ideas, you know, no further marketing ideas, you know, no further marketing ideas, you know, no further than his hometown, but but B&H did it than his hometown, but but B&H did it than his hometown, but but B&H did it for him. They made flyers and uh he for him. They made flyers and uh he for him. They made flyers and uh he [laughter] put them up. So it has been [laughter] put them up. So it has been [laughter] put them up. So it has been so fun start to finish. Uh getting to do so fun start to finish. Uh getting to do so fun start to finish. Uh getting to do this getting to do this with him. That's this getting to do this with him. That's this getting to do this with him. That's so fun. so fun. so fun. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, Jen, you've just >> Yeah. Yeah. So, Jen, you've just >> Yeah. Yeah. So, Jen, you've just publisher. It's coming out just like a publisher. It's coming out just like a publisher. It's coming out just like a week after. So, with mine's in a few week after. So, with mine's in a few week after. So, with mine's in a few days, yours is in about a week and a days, yours is in about a week and a days, yours is in about a week and a half. Um, half. Um, half. Um, >> so it's a retelling in rhyme, which I'm >> so it's a retelling in rhyme, which I'm >> so it's a retelling in rhyme, which I'm super impressed with. I wanted mine to super impressed with. I wanted mine to super impressed with. I wanted mine to be Did you do the rhyme?

be Did you do the rhyme? be Did you do the rhyme? >> I did. Rhymer inspired me. Yeah. >> I did. Rhymer inspired me. Yeah. >> I did. Rhymer inspired me. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a little known fact >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a little known fact >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a little known fact that I have the uh the Dr. Seuss uh that I have the uh the Dr. Seuss uh that I have the uh the Dr. Seuss uh gift. The kids gift. The kids gift. The kids >> did not know that. >> did not know that. >> did not know that. >> Yeah. the kids all growing up, they >> Yeah. the kids all growing up, they >> Yeah. the kids all growing up, they would always try to challenge me to like would always try to challenge me to like would always try to challenge me to like rhyme things and so kind of fun. rhyme things and so kind of fun. rhyme things and so kind of fun. >> So fun. I tried writing it in rhyme mine >> So fun. I tried writing it in rhyme mine >> So fun. I tried writing it in rhyme mine and uh as one of our dear friends and and uh as one of our dear friends and and uh as one of our dear friends and editors said, this is not without its editors said, this is not without its editors said, this is not without its problems. [laughter] problems. [laughter] problems. [laughter] >> So it is not in rhyme, but tell us Jen, >> So it is not in rhyme, but tell us Jen, >> So it is not in rhyme, but tell us Jen, I want to know why Genesis 2. I want to know why Genesis 2. I want to know why Genesis 2. >> Yeah. So the book is called Made Like >> Yeah. So the book is called Made Like >> Yeah. So the book is called Made Like Me, a true story from the beginning of Me, a true story from the beginning of Me, a true story from the beginning of everything. And um it is a story on a everything. And um it is a story on a everything. And um it is a story on a chapter of the Bible that I think we chapter of the Bible that I think we chapter of the Bible that I think we think is redundant. A lot of times it's think is redundant. A lot of times it's think is redundant. A lot of times it's about a story that we often think is about a story that we often think is about a story that we often think is redundancy. Uh we we we hear the redundancy. Uh we we we hear the redundancy. Uh we we we hear the creation account from an earthly creation account from an earthly creation account from an earthly perspective in Genesis chapter 2, but it perspective in Genesis chapter 2, but it perspective in Genesis chapter 2, but it can kind of feel like, oh, okay, it's can kind of feel like, oh, okay, it's can kind of feel like, oh, okay, it's just kind of the rest of the story, but just kind of the rest of the story, but just kind of the rest of the story, but it it doesn't really add anything to our it it doesn't really add anything to our it it doesn't really add anything to our understanding. And um I think it's a understanding. And um I think it's a understanding. And um I think it's a really important story that not only did really important story that not only did really important story that not only did I not hear it as a child, I didn't hear I not hear it as a child, I didn't hear I not hear it as a child, I didn't hear it as an adult. And so I wanted to bring it as an adult. And so I wanted to bring it as an adult. And so I wanted to bring to light what I think, you know, there's to light what I think, you know, there's to light what I think, you know, there's a there's a hermeneutical principle I a there's a hermeneutical principle I a there's a hermeneutical principle I know you guys are familiar with where know you guys are familiar with where know you guys are familiar with where you ask the question, how does the how you ask the question, how does the how you ask the question, how does the how does the story change if this chapter does the story change if this chapter does the story change if this chapter just dropped out of the text? Like what just dropped out of the text? Like what just dropped out of the text? Like what would we be missing? And so what I

would we be missing? And so what I would we be missing? And so what I wanted to do for children, but also for wanted to do for children, but also for wanted to do for children, but also for their parents, is show them why chapter their parents, is show them why chapter their parents, is show them why chapter 2 is so critical to our understanding of 2 is so critical to our understanding of 2 is so critical to our understanding of what it means to be human. Um, it's what it means to be human. Um, it's what it means to be human. Um, it's about who we are and what we're charged about who we are and what we're charged about who we are and what we're charged with doing and how we view one another. with doing and how we view one another. with doing and how we view one another. That the idea of one another is not a That the idea of one another is not a That the idea of one another is not a New Testament concept. New Testament concept. New Testament concept. >> I can hardly wait. >> I can hardly wait. >> I can hardly wait. >> Doesn't that sound like something your >> Doesn't that sound like something your >> Doesn't that sound like something your three-year-old will not They just can't three-year-old will not They just can't three-year-old will not They just can't wait to sit down and read. No. But the wait to sit down and read. No. But the wait to sit down and read. No. But the other thing I loved about it is it lends other thing I loved about it is it lends other thing I loved about it is it lends itself so easily to a to a young itself so easily to a to a young itself so easily to a to a young audience because it has a parade of audience because it has a parade of audience because it has a parade of animals in it. Um yeah, and then my hot animals in it. Um yeah, and then my hot animals in it. Um yeah, and then my hot take on the parade, I'll just tell you take on the parade, I'll just tell you take on the parade, I'll just tell you it's in it's it's in the parental note it's in it's it's in the parental note it's in it's it's in the parental note in the book is that um we should picture in the book is that um we should picture in the book is that um we should picture that being a 2 by two parade of animals that being a 2 by two parade of animals that being a 2 by two parade of animals that passes before Adam because we have that passes before Adam because we have that passes before Adam because we have another a later reiteration of that the another a later reiteration of that the another a later reiteration of that the Eden story in the story of Noah. And so Eden story in the story of Noah. And so Eden story in the story of Noah. And so it makes sense to me that if there are it makes sense to me that if there are it makes sense to me that if there are two parades of animals in the book and two parades of animals in the book and two parades of animals in the book and the second one mentions specifically 2 the second one mentions specifically 2 the second one mentions specifically 2 by 2, we should ask, would this be a 2x by 2, we should ask, would this be a 2x by 2, we should ask, would this be a 2x two parade as well? And I think the two parade as well? And I think the two parade as well? And I think the emphasis of Genesis 2 is um each emphasis of Genesis 2 is um each emphasis of Genesis 2 is um each according to its kind. Yeah. And let's according to its kind. Yeah. And let's according to its kind. Yeah. And let's just say that's the one that should be just say that's the one that should be just say that's the one that should be in nursery rooms rather than the other in nursery rooms rather than the other in nursery rooms rather than the other one which is actually a picture of one which is actually a picture of one which is actually a picture of judgment. Oh, and we like I mean this is judgment. Oh, and we like I mean this is judgment. Oh, and we like I mean this is actually a celebratory one.

actually a celebratory one. actually a celebratory one. >> Do an Eden themed nursery. >> Do an Eden themed nursery. >> Do an Eden themed nursery. >> Exactly. A little tight. No snakes >> Exactly. A little tight. No snakes >> Exactly. A little tight. No snakes allowed allowed allowed >> in for a tub toy. My kids had a tub toy >> in for a tub toy. My kids had a tub toy >> in for a tub toy. My kids had a tub toy [laughter] that was the ark. [laughter] that was the ark. [laughter] that was the ark. >> What in the world? But Melissa, I mean, >> What in the world? But Melissa, I mean, >> What in the world? But Melissa, I mean, enough about the new authors. You're the enough about the new authors. You're the enough about the new authors. You're the one who is prolific to say the least one who is prolific to say the least one who is prolific to say the least when it comes to writing children's when it comes to writing children's when it comes to writing children's books. Um, which of the five picture books. Um, which of the five picture books. Um, which of the five picture books that you've written is your books that you've written is your books that you've written is your favorite? Do you have a favorite child? favorite? Do you have a favorite child? favorite? Do you have a favorite child? That sounds terrible. That it sounds That sounds terrible. That it sounds That sounds terrible. That it sounds awful. I'm such an accidental children's awful. I'm such an accidental children's awful. I'm such an accidental children's book writer. Do you guys feel that way? book writer. Do you guys feel that way? book writer. Do you guys feel that way? Like I feel I'm an accidental author in Like I feel I'm an accidental author in Like I feel I'm an accidental author in general. general. general. >> Melissa though, Jen, like the Saturday >> Melissa though, Jen, like the Saturday >> Melissa though, Jen, like the Saturday before the conference, before TGCW26, before the conference, before TGCW26, before the conference, before TGCW26, Melissa calls or I don't know. She wrote Melissa calls or I don't know. She wrote Melissa calls or I don't know. She wrote a children's book cuz [laughter] she a children's book cuz [laughter] she a children's book cuz [laughter] she needed a break. So, no, I'm not that needed a break. So, no, I'm not that needed a break. So, no, I'm not that accidental. I don't just Oops, I wrote a accidental. I don't just Oops, I wrote a accidental. I don't just Oops, I wrote a children's book. It children's book. It children's book. It >> got in my head [laughter] and I couldn't >> got in my head [laughter] and I couldn't >> got in my head [laughter] and I couldn't get it out of my head, you know, and get it out of my head, you know, and get it out of my head, you know, and then I'm like voice sexy myself the then I'm like voice sexy myself the then I'm like voice sexy myself the different rhyme, you know, and doing different rhyme, you know, and doing different rhyme, you know, and doing these things. But the reason I say these things. But the reason I say these things. But the reason I say accidental is because like wherever you accidental is because like wherever you accidental is because like wherever you go came about cuz I broke my ankle, Jen.

go came about cuz I broke my ankle, Jen. go came about cuz I broke my ankle, Jen. So, this is your opportunity. Um, but it So, this is your opportunity. Um, but it So, this is your opportunity. Um, but it it I was sitting home from church and it it I was sitting home from church and it it I was sitting home from church and it was oddly quiet in my home and um my was oddly quiet in my home and um my was oddly quiet in my home and um my oldest was getting ready to go to oldest was getting ready to go to oldest was getting ready to go to college and I had that moment of have I college and I had that moment of have I college and I had that moment of have I taught her anything. Did we had 17 years taught her anything. Did we had 17 years taught her anything. Did we had 17 years and does she know how to clean a toilet? and does she know how to clean a toilet? and does she know how to clean a toilet? You know, and then this little rhyme You know, and then this little rhyme You know, and then this little rhyme just started to come out. So I feel just started to come out. So I feel just started to come out. So I feel accidental. I think I would say I love accidental. I think I would say I love accidental. I think I would say I love his graces enough um because it it um I his graces enough um because it it um I his graces enough um because it it um I really tried to explain that concept to really tried to explain that concept to really tried to explain that concept to kids like it's and I wanted I it was kids like it's and I wanted I it was kids like it's and I wanted I it was actually at a point when I was watching actually at a point when I was watching actually at a point when I was watching some of um my children's um friends and some of um my children's um friends and some of um my children's um friends and things make choices in college that things make choices in college that things make choices in college that maybe weren't the best. And I was maybe weren't the best. And I was maybe weren't the best. And I was writing with the thought of what rhyme writing with the thought of what rhyme writing with the thought of what rhyme would I want in their head as they're would I want in their head as they're would I want in their head as they're maybe sitting in their dorm room not maybe sitting in their dorm room not maybe sitting in their dorm room not pleased with choices they've made. And pleased with choices they've made. And pleased with choices they've made. And it was his grace is enough. It's so big it was his grace is enough. It's so big it was his grace is enough. It's so big and so free. His grace is enough for and so free. His grace is enough for and so free. His grace is enough for both you and for me. So it was kind of both you and for me. So it was kind of both you and for me. So it was kind of that if I could get it in young that that if I could get it in young that that if I could get it in young that maybe it would come back at age 30 or 40 maybe it would come back at age 30 or 40 maybe it would come back at age 30 or 40 or 50 that um but but yet also explain or 50 that um but but yet also explain or 50 that um but but yet also explain the concept of grace. Not free to sing the concept of grace. Not free to sing the concept of grace. Not free to sing more. He doesn't want that. free to live more. He doesn't want that. free to live more. He doesn't want that. free to live free. And that's a great fact, you know, free. And that's a great fact, you know, free. And that's a great fact, you know, like trying to explain both that grace like trying to explain both that grace like trying to explain both that grace frees you from the penalty and it frees frees you from the penalty and it frees frees you from the penalty and it frees you from the power and to take a big you from the power and to take a big you from the power and to take a big concept and make it simple for a kid.

concept and make it simple for a kid. concept and make it simple for a kid. Um, that's what I love getting to do Um, that's what I love getting to do Um, that's what I love getting to do about kids books. I love that. If um, if about kids books. I love that. If um, if about kids books. I love that. If um, if you guys are listening to this episode you guys are listening to this episode you guys are listening to this episode on and you're watching it on YouTube, I on and you're watching it on YouTube, I on and you're watching it on YouTube, I want you to put in the comments how many want you to put in the comments how many want you to put in the comments how many times you see Jen's pugs walk by in the times you see Jen's pugs walk by in the times you see Jen's pugs walk by in the [laughter] background. [laughter] background. [laughter] background. >> I am so It's like the little right now. >> I am so It's like the little right now. >> I am so It's like the little right now. No, can you hear that? Can you see them? No, can you hear that? Can you see them? No, can you hear that? Can you see them? >> I just every once in a while one of them >> I just every once in a while one of them >> I just every once in a while one of them just walks by and I'm like I don't know just walks by and I'm like I don't know just walks by and I'm like I don't know how many times this happened but I want how many times this happened but I want how many times this happened but I want to know to know to know the doors and they like jailbroke the doors and they like jailbroke the doors and they like jailbroke through the door over there and they through the door over there and they through the door over there and they have just been roaming around behind me have just been roaming around behind me have just been roaming around behind me this whole this whole this whole is free. And just for those who don't is free. And just for those who don't is free. And just for those who don't know, I am podcasting from my living know, I am podcasting from my living know, I am podcasting from my living room because my ankle is broken. And so room because my ankle is broken. And so room because my ankle is broken. And so normally there's a big distance between normally there's a big distance between normally there's a big distance between me and the dogs and they are just they me and the dogs and they are just they me and the dogs and they are just they want to be on the show. They're like, want to be on the show. They're like, want to be on the show. They're like, did you mention a parade of animals 2 by did you mention a parade of animals 2 by did you mention a parade of animals 2 by two because here we are. [laughter] two because here we are. [laughter] two because here we are. [laughter] >> We're coming. >> We're coming. >> We're coming. >> We're coming. >> We're coming. >> We're coming. >> Yeah, we're coming. Melissa, I do want >> Yeah, we're coming. Melissa, I do want >> Yeah, we're coming. Melissa, I do want you to tell us though about um your new you to tell us though about um your new you to tell us though about um your new one that's coming out because I've seen one that's coming out because I've seen one that's coming out because I've seen the illustrations for this and I know the illustrations for this and I know the illustrations for this and I know I'm not supposed to have favorites I'm not supposed to have favorites I'm not supposed to have favorites either, but this one is it's my either, but this one is it's my either, but this one is it's my favorite. I love it. I love the colors.

favorite. I love it. I love the colors. favorite. I love it. I love the colors. I love what's happening in it. Uh it is I love what's happening in it. Uh it is I love what's happening in it. Uh it is so cute. That's fun. Well, this one um so cute. That's fun. Well, this one um so cute. That's fun. Well, this one um started when my child was 5 years old started when my child was 5 years old started when my child was 5 years old and we've been talking about how God and we've been talking about how God and we've been talking about how God always sees her and always pays always sees her and always pays always sees her and always pays attention um and is always watching over attention um and is always watching over attention um and is always watching over them. And then she fell off her bike and them. And then she fell off her bike and them. And then she fell off her bike and skinned her knee and came up to me with skinned her knee and came up to me with skinned her knee and came up to me with this theological question on a Tuesday this theological question on a Tuesday this theological question on a Tuesday afternoon of, "Mom, if God is watching afternoon of, "Mom, if God is watching afternoon of, "Mom, if God is watching after me and he does good to me, then after me and he does good to me, then after me and he does good to me, then why did he let me fall?" And I'm like, why did he let me fall?" And I'm like, why did he let me fall?" And I'm like, "Oh, great. Theological problem of evil "Oh, great. Theological problem of evil "Oh, great. Theological problem of evil question at 2 p.m. on a [laughter] question at 2 p.m. on a [laughter] question at 2 p.m. on a [laughter] Tuesday." And I've been trying to figure Tuesday." And I've been trying to figure Tuesday." And I've been trying to figure out how to answer it since then in an out how to answer it since then in an out how to answer it since then in an age appropriate way. And so this is my age appropriate way. And so this is my age appropriate way. And so this is my attempt to answer it. And it it it's not attempt to answer it. And it it it's not attempt to answer it. And it it it's not so much the um why but more like what so much the um why but more like what so much the um why but more like what are we to do when hard things happen. are we to do when hard things happen. are we to do when hard things happen. So, it's really it's really it's called So, it's really it's really it's called So, it's really it's really it's called count it all joy and it's it's taking count it all joy and it's it's taking count it all joy and it's it's taking James 1, count it all joy when you meet James 1, count it all joy when you meet James 1, count it all joy when you meet trials of various kinds and intersecting trials of various kinds and intersecting trials of various kinds and intersecting it with Romans 8 and some, you know, it with Romans 8 and some, you know, it with Romans 8 and some, you know, concepts in scripture of like how do we concepts in scripture of like how do we concepts in scripture of like how do we intersect when hard things are intersect when hard things are intersect when hard things are happening? Um, and how do we help our happening? Um, and how do we help our happening? Um, and how do we help our children start to start to get a glimpse children start to start to get a glimpse children start to start to get a glimpse of what God's doing in those that he's of what God's doing in those that he's of what God's doing in those that he's over the sunshine and the rain that both over the sunshine and the rain that both over the sunshine and the rain that both are needed. Um, but you know, so it's a are needed. Um, but you know, so it's a are needed. Um, but you know, so it's a light topic. It'll be really fun.

light topic. It'll be really fun. light topic. It'll be really fun. >> Yeah. Light and fluffy. >> Yeah. Light and fluffy. >> Yeah. Light and fluffy. >> Fun. [laughter] Fun. >> Fun. [laughter] Fun. >> Fun. [laughter] Fun. >> Fun to do it. Okay. Well, I have an >> Fun to do it. Okay. Well, I have an >> Fun to do it. Okay. Well, I have an ending question for both of you because ending question for both of you because ending question for both of you because I don't have this yet. So, I'm a little I don't have this yet. So, I'm a little I don't have this yet. So, I'm a little bit jealous of both of you, actually. bit jealous of both of you, actually. bit jealous of both of you, actually. Um, so where do you two like to snuggle Um, so where do you two like to snuggle Um, so where do you two like to snuggle up? Where's a place in your house that up? Where's a place in your house that up? Where's a place in your house that you like to snuggle up with your you like to snuggle up with your you like to snuggle up with your grandbabies and read? And like I say, I grandbabies and read? And like I say, I grandbabies and read? And like I say, I mean, yeah, that's so fun. I I don't I mean, yeah, that's so fun. I I don't I mean, yeah, that's so fun. I I don't I don't have any little people. [laughter] don't have any little people. [laughter] don't have any little people. [laughter] We have these oversized chairs in our We have these oversized chairs in our We have these oversized chairs in our front room and so there's room on the front room and so there's room on the front room and so there's room on the chair for either two pugs or two chair for either two pugs or two chair for either two pugs or two grandchildren depending on, you know, grandchildren depending on, you know, grandchildren depending on, you know, who's in the house at any given time. who's in the house at any given time. who's in the house at any given time. And um that's a really good spot. And um that's a really good spot. And um that's a really good spot. There's also the the couch on the other There's also the the couch on the other There's also the the couch on the other side of the room holds more than two if side of the room holds more than two if side of the room holds more than two if we happen to have more uh grandkids in we happen to have more uh grandkids in we happen to have more uh grandkids in in town at at the time. Um and I I am in town at at the time. Um and I I am in town at at the time. Um and I I am usually um Martha in these scenarios. usually um Martha in these scenarios. usually um Martha in these scenarios. I'm usually running around trying to get I'm usually running around trying to get I'm usually running around trying to get dinner on the table and Jeff is Mary. dinner on the table and Jeff is Mary. dinner on the table and Jeff is Mary. He's the one who sits and actually, you He's the one who sits and actually, you He's the one who sits and actually, you know, does the reading and I need to be know, does the reading and I need to be know, does the reading and I need to be better at slowing down and and taking better at slowing down and and taking better at slowing down and and taking advantage of that. I better at it if I'm advantage of that. I better at it if I'm advantage of that. I better at it if I'm staying at if I'm at the their house, staying at if I'm at the their house, staying at if I'm at the their house, not at my house. Do you find that? Well, not at my house. Do you find that? Well, not at my house. Do you find that? Well, Courtney, yours are living with you, so Courtney, yours are living with you, so Courtney, yours are living with you, so I guess you've got all various No, I I I guess you've got all various No, I I I guess you've got all various No, I I love it. I don't know. There's love it. I don't know. There's love it. I don't know. There's something. It's just the sweetest thing something. It's just the sweetest thing something. It's just the sweetest thing when they want to when they want to slow when they want to when they want to slow when they want to when they want to slow down, right? They're the ones that are down, right? They're the ones that are down, right? They're the ones that are just like running around all the time.

just like running around all the time. just like running around all the time. And so we have a the kids have a bunk And so we have a the kids have a bunk And so we have a the kids have a bunk room. Um and right outside that bunk room. Um and right outside that bunk room. Um and right outside that bunk room is a couch that we love to, you room is a couch that we love to, you room is a couch that we love to, you know, get on and snuggle. It's super know, get on and snuggle. It's super know, get on and snuggle. It's super comfy and yeah, they like to fight over, comfy and yeah, they like to fight over, comfy and yeah, they like to fight over, you know, who says where, of course. And you know, who says where, of course. And you know, who says where, of course. And so you kind of a lot of jostling. Um but so you kind of a lot of jostling. Um but so you kind of a lot of jostling. Um but it's just it's just it's just >> the best. It's the best. >> the best. It's the best. >> the best. It's the best. >> That's so fun. That's so fun. Well, we >> That's so fun. That's so fun. Well, we >> That's so fun. That's so fun. Well, we just encourage you um read to your kids, just encourage you um read to your kids, just encourage you um read to your kids, read to your grandkids, read to your if read to your grandkids, read to your if read to your grandkids, read to your if you're in a church and you're doing you're in a church and you're doing you're in a church and you're doing nursery, read to the kids in the nursery, read to the kids in the nursery, read to the kids in the nursery. Find, you know, kids I think um nursery. Find, you know, kids I think um nursery. Find, you know, kids I think um it's such a blessing when they're read it's such a blessing when they're read it's such a blessing when they're read to um because they will they it does to um because they will they it does to um because they will they it does help just develop a love for reading and help just develop a love for reading and help just develop a love for reading and a love for reading can lead us to God's a love for reading can lead us to God's a love for reading can lead us to God's word. And so I think that's that's the word. And so I think that's that's the word. And so I think that's that's the bigger hope on all of this that they bigger hope on all of this that they bigger hope on all of this that they will read lots of words and be most will read lots of words and be most will read lots of words and be most attracted to the word from from the attracted to the word from from the attracted to the word from from the Lord. So friends, we um just hope you Lord. So friends, we um just hope you Lord. So friends, we um just hope you all have been encouraged by this episode all have been encouraged by this episode all have been encouraged by this episode of the deep dish. We have loved having of the deep dish. We have loved having of the deep dish. We have loved having you Jen. Um we will take you anytime. Um you Jen. Um we will take you anytime. Um you Jen. Um we will take you anytime. Um >> thanks guys. [laughter] >> thanks guys. [laughter] >> thanks guys. [laughter] >> Yeah, co-host. Co-host. [music] Um and >> Yeah, co-host. Co-host. [music] Um and >> Yeah, co-host. Co-host. [music] Um and we just would love for you if you we just would love for you if you we just would love for you if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a enjoyed this episode, share it with a enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend.