One Nation Under God? Responding to Christian Nationalism (Kevin DeYoung at TGC Council Meeting)

I want to start with an I want to start with an example. What you example. What you example. What you see before you see before you see before you dates back to the 19th dates back to the 19th dates back to the 19th century. This is the third century. This is the third century. This is the third volume of volume of volume of Charles Charles Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology. Hodge's Systematic Theology. Hodge's Systematic Theology. Crossway Publishing is currently working on a Crossway Publishing is currently working on a Crossway Publishing is currently working on a multi-year plan to multi-year plan to multi-year plan to reprint reprint Hodge's Systematic Theology Hodge's Systematic Theology to translate all of the to translate all of the to translate all of the Latin, German, and Latin, German, and Latin, German, and French that had French that had French that had not previously not previously not previously been translated— been translated— mostly Latin. There are mostly Latin. There are mostly Latin. There are over a hundred pages of over a hundred pages of over a hundred pages of untranslated untranslated untranslated Latin, so I'll Latin, so I'll Latin, so I'll skip them. Some of skip them. Some of skip them. Some of you are smarter than you are smarter than you are smarter than me. This will be a proper me. This will be a proper me. This will be a proper critical edition of critical edition of critical edition of Hodge's works. I'm really looking forward to it Hodge's works. I'm really looking forward to it Hodge's works. I'm really looking forward to it . I . I . I was asked to write was asked to write was asked to write one of the introductory essays, one of the introductory essays, one of the introductory essays, so I'm so I'm so I'm rereading Hodge again right now. rereading Hodge again right now. rereading Hodge again right now. I try to read I try to read I try to read five to ten pages five to ten pages five to ten pages in the morning. I came across this a few in the morning. I came across this a few in the morning. I came across this a few months ago months ago months ago and you and you and you can see what can see what can see what it says about the it says about the it says about the fourth commandment. I fourth commandment. I fourth commandment. I bring this up as an example bring this up as an example bring this up as an example not because I agree with not because I agree with not because I agree with everything he says—as everything he says—as everything he says—as you do, although I like a lot of it—but you do, although I like a lot of it—but because there is really little in the because there is really little in the Reformed Reformed Reformed tradition that tradition that tradition that specifically specifically specifically addresses the question: addresses the question: addresses the question: Is America a Is America a Is America a Christian nation Christian nation , and what would that mean , and what would that mean , and what would that mean for America? And Hodge for America? And Hodge for America? And Hodge considers this considers this considers this argument. You can argument. You can argument. You can see on the left side of see on the left side of see on the left side of page 340 a mention page 340 a mention page 340 a mention of Sunday laws.

of Sunday laws. of Sunday laws. He is talking about the He is talking about the He is talking about the fourth commandment. fourth commandment. fourth commandment. Let us leave aside Let us leave aside Let us leave aside whether we whether we whether we disagree about the extent to which the disagree about the extent to which the fourth commandment fourth commandment remains remains remains relevant during the relevant during the relevant during the New Testament. New Testament. Let us assume a Let us assume a Westminster Westminster Westminster high view of high view of high view of Sunday. This is what Sunday. This is what Sunday. This is what Hodge is working with. So, on Hodge is working with. So, on Hodge is working with. So, on page 341, page 341, page 341, notice what I notice what I notice what I underlined. Point underlined. Point underlined. Point four is closer to the bottom four is closer to the bottom : because humans are : because humans are : because humans are moral beings, moral beings, moral beings, the government cannot act as the government cannot act as the government cannot act as if there is no if there is no if there is no difference between good and difference between good and difference between good and evil. We would agree with that evil. We would agree with that evil. We would agree with that . The government . The government . The government can't pretend that can't pretend that can't pretend that good or evil doesn't exist, good or evil doesn't exist, good or evil doesn't exist, otherwise you wouldn't have otherwise you wouldn't have otherwise you wouldn't have any laws. Well, you ca any laws. Well, you ca any laws. Well, you ca n't n't legislate your own legislate your own morality. Every law morality. Every law morality. Every law has a certain moral has a certain moral has a certain moral basis. Earlier he basis. Earlier he basis. Earlier he makes a statement, to which makes a statement, to which makes a statement, to which we will return, at the very we will return, at the very we will return, at the very beginning, regarding the beginning, regarding the beginning, regarding the state of the matter. In state of the matter. In state of the matter. In every free every free every free country, it is recognized that country, it is recognized that country, it is recognized that every person has every person has every person has equal rights with their equal rights with their equal rights with their fellow citizens and fellow citizens and fellow citizens and stands on an equal footing stands on an equal footing stands on an equal footing before the law. before the law. No form of religion may be No form of religion may be established in the United States established in the United States established in the United States . No . No religious qualifications may be introduced.

religious qualifications may be introduced. Some in this discussion Some in this discussion Some in this discussion say, "Well, we should say, "Well, we should say, "Well, we should have religious qualifications. have religious qualifications. " He says that " He says that " He says that suffrage for suffrage for suffrage for office can office can office can be established. be established. be established. No advantages No advantages No advantages may be given to may be given to may be given to members of one members of one members of one religious denomination religious denomination religious denomination over another. No over another. No over another. No person may be person may be person may be compelled to compelled to compelled to contribute to the support of contribute to the support of contribute to the support of any church. any church. any church. Therefore, he rejects in Therefore, he rejects in Therefore, he rejects in his thoughts his thoughts any principle of any principle of any principle of establishing a establishing a establishing a state religion. state religion. But he wants to prove But he wants to prove that America is a that America is a that America is a Christian nation. Christian nation. So he says: we have our So he says: we have our own Christian own Christian own Christian nation. Turn nation. Turn nation. Turn the page. 342, middle of the page. 342, middle of the page. 342, middle of page. Civil page. Civil page. Civil government cannot government cannot government cannot ignore religion any more ignore religion any more ignore religion any more than it can ignore physiology. It than it can ignore physiology. It than it can ignore physiology. It was not created to was not created to was not created to teach teach teach either one or the other. He either one or the other. He either one or the other. He says that the says that the says that the government's job is not to explain government's job is not to explain government's job is not to explain astrophysics to you or astrophysics to you or astrophysics to you or teach you religion, but teach you religion, but teach you religion, but you can't you can't you can't ignore ignore ignore gravity any more than you gravity any more than you gravity any more than you can ignore can ignore can ignore religion. Violating the religion. Violating the religion. Violating the religious religious religious beliefs of your beliefs of your beliefs of your citizens is like citizens is like citizens is like violating violating violating health laws. So, bottom of health laws. So, bottom of health laws. So, bottom of the page: by the same the page: by the same the page: by the same necessity, necessity, necessity, since the people are since the people are since the people are Christians and Christians and Christians and Protestants, the government Protestants, the government Protestants, the government must act according to the must act according to the must act according to the principles of principles of principles of Protestant Protestant Protestant Christianity. Now Christianity. Now Christianity. Now notice, I am showing notice, I am showing notice, I am showing you Hodge's thoughts to you Hodge's thoughts to you Hodge's thoughts to give you some give you some give you some categories; there will be categories; there will be categories; there will be things we will things we will things we will like and things we like and things we like and things we may not may not may not like, but that like, but that like, but that brings us to a brings us to a brings us to a discussion of discussion of discussion of Christian Christian Christian Nationalism in our Nationalism in our Nationalism in our time. He goes on to say: "This does time. He goes on to say: "This does time. He goes on to say: "This does not mean that the government not mean that the government not mean that the government should teach should teach should teach Christianity, or make

Christianity, or make Christianity, or make confession a condition of confession a condition of confession a condition of citizenship or a citizenship or a citizenship or a requirement for requirement for requirement for office, and office, and office, and it does not mean that the government is it does not mean that the government is it does not mean that the government is called upon to punish called upon to punish called upon to punish every violation of a every violation of a every violation of a Christian Christian Christian principle or rule. principle or rule. principle or rule. It is not called upon to It is not called upon to It is not called upon to punish every punish every punish every violation of the moral violation of the moral violation of the moral law, but just as it law, but just as it law, but just as it cannot itself violate the cannot itself violate the cannot itself violate the moral law or moral law or moral law or require require require people to do so, so it people to do so, so it people to do so, so it cannot ignore cannot ignore cannot ignore Christianity in its Christianity in its Christianity in its official actions." And official actions." And official actions." And here, I think, is a clearly here, I think, is a clearly here, I think, is a clearly formulated formulated formulated distinction. He distinction. He distinction. He cannot demand from cannot demand from cannot demand from people or from his people or from his people or from his officials to do what officials to do what Christianity forbids, and he Christianity forbids, and he cannot forbid them to cannot forbid them to cannot forbid them to do what it do what it do what it commands. One of the commands. One of the commands. One of the contentious issues contentious issues contentious issues we came to in the we came to in the Christian Christian Nationalism Committee is that I Nationalism Committee is that I Nationalism Committee is that I have the right to be have the right to be have the right to be present as an ex present as an ex present as an ex officio member, even though I do not have officio member, even though I do not have officio member, even though I do not have voting rights in the voting rights in the voting rights in the committee. But we have committee. But we have committee. But we have arrived at this arrived at this arrived at this statement: "A statement: "A civil magistrate civil magistrate civil magistrate is bound is bound is bound to observe God's to observe God's to observe God's moral law." moral law."

What should we What should we put into this put into this put into this statement? So, is a statement? So, is a statement? So, is a civil magistrate, civil magistrate, civil magistrate, or the President of the or the President of the or the President of the United States, United States, United States, bound bound bound to abide by it to abide by it to abide by it as an individual? as an individual? as an individual? Of course, every person Of course, every person Of course, every person is obliged is obliged is obliged to adhere to the to adhere to the to adhere to the moral law. moral law. moral law. People on our People on our People on our committee said, " committee said, " Yes, but it means Yes, but it means Yes, but it means more." No, the civil more." No, the civil more." No, the civil magistrate, the government as magistrate, the government as magistrate, the government as such, is bound by such, is bound by such, is bound by moral law. moral law. moral law. So we're really So we're really So we're really trying trying to finish the sentence: " Committed to what Committed to what Committed to what ?" Well, I'm ?" Well, I'm ?" Well, I'm obliged to obliged to obliged to follow it. Okay, follow it. Okay, follow it. Okay, does this mean that the does this mean that the does this mean that the statutory law of statutory law of statutory law of the land must be the same as the the land must be the same as the the land must be the same as the moral moral moral law in God's word? law in God's word? What should we have as What should we have as punishment for punishment for punishment for violating the moral violating the moral violating the moral law? Nobody law? Nobody law? Nobody really really really wants that. You don't want the wants that. You don't want the wants that. You don't want the civil government civil government civil government trying to trying to enforce the tenth enforce the tenth commandment. You would commandment. You would commandment. You would get a get a get a totalitarian regime. totalitarian regime. You cannot know the You cannot know the human heart of human heart of human heart of millions of citizens millions of citizens millions of citizens to understand whether to understand whether to understand whether they are breaking the law by they are breaking the law by they are breaking the law by coveting something. So coveting something. So coveting something. So I think, as Hodge says, I think, as Hodge says, I think, as Hodge says, and we end up and we end up and we end up using using using similar language, government similar language, government similar language, government should not prohibit what should not prohibit what Christianity requires or Christianity requires or require what require what require what Christianity Christianity Christianity prohibits. This would be a prohibits. This would be a prohibits. This would be a government that demonstrates government that demonstrates government that demonstrates obedience to the moral obedience to the moral obedience to the moral law, whether it realizes law, whether it realizes law, whether it realizes it or not. This is

it or not. This is it or not. This is Hodge's argument. And I Hodge's argument. And I Hodge's argument. And I think that's, you know, think that's, you know, think that's, you know, especially for our especially for our especially for our people from Washington, and people from Washington, and people from Washington, and we'll invite them here, it's we'll invite them here, it's we'll invite them here, it's worth thinking about worth thinking about how we're going to help how we're going to help how we're going to help people in the political people in the political people in the political process. Um, process. Um, process. Um, should there be a law should there be a law should there be a law punishing gossip? I do punishing gossip? I do punishing gossip? I do n't think so. Gossip n't think so. Gossip is a sin. Uh, this is getting more is a sin. Uh, this is getting more is a sin. Uh, this is getting more complicated. Well, complicated. Well, complicated. Well, should there be laws should there be laws should there be laws punishing sodomy punishing sodomy ? Well, for most of ? Well, for most of American American history, that was the history, that was the history, that was the law. Is this...Then law. Is this...Then law. Is this...Then you have to ask you have to ask you have to ask some sensible some sensible some sensible questions, I suppose. Isn't questions, I suppose. Isn't questions, I suppose. Isn't God against sodomy, God against sodomy, God against sodomy, but how can we but how can we but how can we ensure it? Um, do ensure it? Um, do ensure it? Um, do we have a mechanism for we have a mechanism for we have a mechanism for this? There are many this? There are many this? There are many thoughtful questions, thoughtful questions, thoughtful questions, but I think but I think but I think at least Hodge gives at least Hodge gives at least Hodge gives us a useful us a useful us a useful category. He then category. He then category. He then goes on to goes on to goes on to justify why justify why justify why he believes he believes he believes America is and has been a America is and has been a America is and has been a Protestant Protestant Protestant nation. On page 344 nation. On page 344 nation. On page 344 he makes an he makes an he makes an argument, interestingly, not argument, interestingly, not argument, interestingly, not so much metaphysically so much metaphysically so much metaphysically or even biblically, or even biblically, or even biblically, as historically. It is a as historically. It is a as historically. It is a historical fact, historical fact, historical fact, he says, that he says, that he says, that Protestant Protestant Protestant Christianity is the Christianity is the Christianity is the law of the land. It was law of the land. It was law of the land. It was from the very beginning. Whatever from the very beginning. Whatever Protestant Protestant Christianity forbids, the law of the Christianity forbids, the law of the Christianity forbids, the law of the land within its land within its land within its sphere, that is, within the sphere, that is, within the sphere, that is, within the sphere where the civil sphere where the civil sphere where the civil authority can authority can authority can properly act, also properly act, also properly act, also forbids.

forbids. forbids. Christianity Christianity Christianity prohibits prohibits prohibits polygamy and polygamy and polygamy and arbitrary divorce arbitrary divorce , as does , as does , as does civil law. civil law. civil law. Catholicism prohibits Catholicism prohibits Catholicism prohibits divorce even on the divorce even on the divorce even on the grounds of adultery, grounds of adultery, grounds of adultery, Protestantism Protestantism Protestantism allows it on this allows it on this allows it on this basis. I think basis. I think basis. I think one of the criticisms one of the criticisms one of the criticisms we we we could make of Hoxha could make of Hoxha is that is that is that he paints too he paints too he paints too rosy a picture rosy a picture rosy a picture of how of how of how Christian everything was and Christian everything was and Christian everything was and how all laws are how all laws are how all laws are Christian. But Christian. But Christian. But he is trying he is trying he is trying to convey the idea that to convey the idea that to convey the idea that we were founded by we were founded by we were founded by Christians and our Christians and our Christians and our institutions were institutions were institutions were Christian. So Christian. So Christian. So go to the star go to the star go to the star on the other side of on the other side of on the other side of the page. When the page. When the page. When Protestant Protestant Protestant Christianity came Christianity came Christianity came to this country, they to this country, they to this country, they took possession and took possession and took possession and conquered this land. conquered this land. conquered this land. They worshipped They worshipped They worshipped God and His Son God and His Son God and His Son Jesus Christ as the Jesus Christ as the Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world. They Savior of the world. They Savior of the world. They recognized the Holy recognized the Holy recognized the Holy Scriptures as the rule of Scriptures as the rule of Scriptures as the rule of their faith and their faith and their faith and practice. They practice. They practice. They implemented their implemented their implemented their religion in their religion in their religion in their families, their schools, families, their schools, families, their schools, their colleges. They their colleges. They their colleges. They abstained from abstained from abstained from all mundane all mundane all mundane activities on the activities on the activities on the Lord's Day, Lord's Day, Lord's Day, dedicating it to dedicating it to dedicating it to religion. They religion. They religion. They built churches, built churches, built churches, established schools, and established schools, and established schools, and taught their children taught their children taught their children to read the Bible, to read the Bible, to read the Bible, accepting and obeying accepting and obeying accepting and obeying it as the word of God. it as the word of God. it as the word of God. They united as They united as They united as Christians in Christians in Christians in municipal and municipal and municipal and state organizations state organizations . They acknowledged God . They acknowledged God . They acknowledged God in their legislative in their legislative in their legislative assemblies. They assemblies. They assemblies. They demanded demanded demanded oaths in His name.

oaths in His name. oaths in His name. They closed their courts, They closed their courts, They closed their courts, their businesses, their their businesses, their their businesses, their legislative bodies, and legislative bodies, and legislative bodies, and all institutions under all institutions under all institutions under state control state control state control on the Lord's Day. I on the Lord's Day. I on the Lord's Day. I think this is think this is think this is a generalization, but I a generalization, but I a generalization, but I think it is think it is think it is entirely entirely entirely defensible. You can defensible. You can defensible. You can find examples find examples find examples at least as far back as at least as far back as at least as far back as FDR where statements were made FDR where statements were made FDR where statements were made about us as a about us as a about us as a Christian people. Christian people. I think most I think most people, um, up until the second people, um, up until the second people, um, up until the second half of the 20th half of the 20th half of the 20th century, if you century, if you century, if you asked, is asked, is asked, is America a America a America a Christian nation Christian nation ? I think most people ? I think most people ? I think most people would answer, "Well, yes, would answer, "Well, yes, would answer, "Well, yes, there is." But do they there is." But do they there is." But do they mean what is mean what is mean what is called called called Christian Christian Christian nationalism today? I would nationalism today? I would nationalism today? I would argue that for argue that for argue that for the most part, no. But the most part, no. But the most part, no. But listen to what he listen to what he listen to what he says there. Over time, and says there. Over time, and says there. Over time, and here's the part that I think is here's the part that I think is here's the part that I think is missing, missing, missing, really missing. If really missing. If really missing. If you want to accept you want to accept you want to accept Hodge in the first Hodge in the first Hodge in the first part, listen to part, listen to part, listen to him in the second. him in the second. him in the second. Over time, thousands have Over time, thousands have Over time, thousands have come to us who come to us who come to us who are neither Protestants are neither Protestants are neither Protestants nor Christians. Some are nor Christians. Some are papists, some are papists, some are Jews, some are Jews, some are infidels, some are infidels, some are atheists. Everyone is welcome atheists. Everyone is welcome . Everyone is allowed . Everyone is allowed . Everyone is allowed equal rights and equal rights and equal rights and privileges. Everyone privileges. Everyone privileges. Everyone is allowed to own is allowed to own is allowed to own property and property and property and vote in every vote in every vote in every election. They have the election. They have the election. They have the right to hold right to hold any positions endowed with any positions endowed with any positions endowed with equal influence on equal influence on equal influence on state affairs. Everyone state affairs. Everyone state affairs. Everyone is allowed is allowed is allowed to worship as they to worship as they to worship as they wish, or wish, or wish, or not to worship at all if not to worship at all if not to worship at all if they see

they see they see fit. No one is fit. No one is fit. No one is persecuted for persecuted for persecuted for their religion or their religion or their religion or lack of religion. lack of religion. lack of religion. No one is forced No one is forced No one is forced to profess any to profess any to profess any form of belief or to form of belief or to form of belief or to join join join any religious any religious any religious association. More association. More association. More than this cannot than this cannot than this cannot reasonably reasonably reasonably be demanded. However, be demanded. However, be demanded. However, they demand more. they demand more. they demand more. The unbeliever demands The unbeliever demands The unbeliever demands that the government act on the that the government act on the that the government act on the principle that principle that principle that Christianity is Christianity is Christianity is false. The atheist false. The atheist false. The atheist demands that this be done demands that this be done demands that this be done on the on the on the assumption that God does assumption that God does assumption that God does not exist. The positivist not exist. The positivist not exist. The positivist starts from the principle starts from the principle starts from the principle that people are not free that people are not free that people are not free agents. The definitive agents. The definitive agents. The definitive answer to all of this answer to all of this answer to all of this is that it can't be is that it can't be is that it can't be done. So, one done. So, one done. So, one example from the 1870s is example from the 1870s is example from the 1870s is when Hodge tried to when Hodge tried to when Hodge tried to advocate for advocate for advocate for Sunday laws. Note Sunday laws. Note Sunday laws. Note that "Sunday laws" are that "Sunday laws" are not so much about not so much about not so much about the government monitoring the government monitoring whether you work on whether you work on whether you work on Sunday. In Orange City, Sunday. In Orange City, Sunday. In Orange City, Iowa, where I Iowa, where I Iowa, where I started, there was a started, there was a started, there was a common humorous common humorous common humorous story because story because story because the town was very the town was very the town was very Dutch, very Dutch, very Dutch, very Reformed. Uh, you Reformed. Uh, you Reformed. Uh, you don't... Nothing happened on Sunday don't... Nothing happened on Sunday don't... Nothing happened on Sunday . Everything . Everything . Everything was closed. The joke was closed. The joke was closed. The joke was that you could was that you could was that you could see the soap see the soap see the soap scum from under the garage scum from under the garage scum from under the garage doors because people washed their doors because people washed their doors because people washed their cars in the garage so cars in the garage so cars in the garage so they wouldn't be seen doing this they wouldn't be seen doing this they wouldn't be seen doing this activity on Sunday. I don't activity on Sunday. I don't activity on Sunday. I don't think that was think that was think that was true. You wouldn't hear true. You wouldn't hear true. You wouldn't hear a single a single a single lawnmower in the lawnmower in the lawnmower in the city on a Sunday. If city on a Sunday. If city on a Sunday. If heard, the sound would sound heard, the sound would sound heard, the sound would sound like a Muslim like a Muslim like a Muslim call to prayer. That's call to prayer. That's call to prayer. That's probably how it would be probably how it would be probably how it would be . So, he's not . So, he's not . So, he's not looking for the state looking for the state looking for the state Gestapo, but he says, Gestapo, but he says, Gestapo, but he says, in particular, if you know in particular, if you know in particular, if you know the history, that the problem the history, that the problem the history, that the problem was with was with was with mail delivery on Sunday. Well, mail delivery on Sunday. Well, mail delivery on Sunday. Well, if it's the federal if it's the federal if it's the federal government that delivers the mail, government that delivers the mail, government that delivers the mail, then I guess his then I guess his then I guess his main argument is

main argument is main argument is that the federal that the federal that the federal government shouldn't government shouldn't government shouldn't force Christians force Christians force Christians to violate the principles of to violate the principles of to violate the principles of their faith. And he says: their faith. And he says: "For us, working on "For us, working on "For us, working on Sunday would mean Sunday would mean Sunday would mean violating the principles of violating the principles of violating the principles of our faith." This is the our faith." This is the our faith." This is the crux of the problem. What crux of the problem. What crux of the problem. What about Christian about Christian about Christian nationalism in our nationalism in our nationalism in our time? What ingredients time? What ingredients time? What ingredients can be added to the can be added to the can be added to the “stew” of “stew” of “stew” of Christian Christian Christian nationalism? The first nationalism? The first nationalism? The first time I wrote about time I wrote about time I wrote about Christian Christian Christian nationalism was to nationalism was to nationalism was to say—it was say—it was say—it was right after January 6th right after January 6th —that the term —that the term —that the term was used was used was used mostly as a mostly as a mostly as a derogatory epithet. And derogatory epithet. And derogatory epithet. And as is often the case, as is often the case, as is often the case, it is later it is later it is later worn as a worn as a worn as a sign of respect. So, the sign of respect. So, the sign of respect. So, the first time I wrote about first time I wrote about first time I wrote about this was to say, " this was to say, " Stop calling Stop calling Stop calling everyone a Christian everyone a Christian everyone a Christian nationalist." " nationalist." " Nobody calls themselves a Nobody calls themselves a Nobody calls themselves a Christian Christian Christian nationalist." nationalist." nationalist." Okay, that's Okay, that's Okay, that's not true anymore. Many not true anymore. Many not true anymore. Many people do this. So people do this. So people do this. So if someone says, "Yes, if someone says, "Yes, if someone says, "Yes, Christian Christian Christian nationalism." What nationalism." What nationalism." What could they mean?

could they mean? could they mean? If I hadn't been working If I hadn't been working If I hadn't been working on this until the last on this until the last on this until the last minute, I would have put them minute, I would have put them minute, I would have put them on the board, but I'll just on the board, but I'll just on the board, but I'll just tell you the tell you the old-fashioned way. Firstly. old-fashioned way. Firstly. old-fashioned way. Firstly. They may simply They may simply They may simply mean: I would like to mean: I would like to mean: I would like to see more see more see more Christian Christian Christian influence in politics and influence in politics and influence in politics and public life. public life. public life. They may simply They may simply They may simply mean: let's not mean: let's not mean: let's not back down. I want back down. I want back down. I want more...That's what I...I more...That's what I...I more...That's what I...I hosted our alumni retreat hosted our alumni retreat last year. And that last year. And that was a good was a good was a good reminder. We reminder. We reminder. We live in different live in different live in different worlds. You know, we worlds. You know, we worlds. You know, we were chatting with some were chatting with some were chatting with some of us during the of us during the of us during the break. What is the greater break. What is the greater break. What is the greater threat? You know, the threat? You know, the threat? You know, the radical right or the radical right or the radical right or the progressive left? And progressive left? And progressive left? And the answer, of course, the answer, of course, the answer, of course, depends on, depends on, depends on, you know, what you know, what you know, what denomination you belong to denomination you belong to denomination you belong to and where you are. And and where you are. And and where you are. And I, you know, think about I, you know, think about I, you know, think about Stephen Wolfe and, Stephen Wolfe and, Stephen Wolfe and, you know, all those you know, all those you know, all those guys on the internet, guys on the internet, guys on the internet, and the dangers of and the dangers of and the dangers of Christian Christian Christian nationalism that nationalism that nationalism that I've written about. And these dear I've written about. And these dear I've written about. And these dear saints in my church saints in my church saints in my church think about people think about people think about people who want to push who want to push who want to push Christianity out of the Christianity out of the Christianity out of the public public public space and don't want space and don't want space and don't want prayer, so they prayer, so they prayer, so they see this see this see this term as an influence. Do term as an influence. Do term as an influence. Do n't we want n't we want n't we want America to be more America to be more America to be more Christian? So, that's what Christian? So, that's what Christian? So, that's what some people mean some people mean some people mean . Number . Number . Number two: two: two: Christian Christian Christian nationalism nationalism nationalism is understood by some to mean a more is understood by some to mean a more is understood by some to mean a more assertive approach to assertive approach to assertive approach to cultural interaction cultural interaction .

. . The phrase is sometimes used: "Let's not The phrase is sometimes used: "Let's not The phrase is sometimes used: "Let's not discuss discuss discuss the terms of our own the terms of our own the terms of our own surrender." Like, surrender." Like, surrender." Like, everything we everything we everything we try to achieve try to achieve try to achieve in politics is just something in politics is just something in politics is just something we've already lost we've already lost . Can we just . Can we just . Can we just hold on to hold on to hold on to as many things as possible as many things as possible as many things as possible while we while we while we negotiate the terms of negotiate the terms of negotiate the terms of our own our own our own surrender. So, surrender. So, surrender. So, there is some there is some there is some certainty. We are not certainty. We are not certainty. We are not trying trying trying to win the approval of to win the approval of to win the approval of those who disparage those who disparage those who disparage our culture. our culture. our culture. Let's not make an idol out of Let's not make an idol out of Let's not make an idol out of empathy, which is what that empathy, which is what that conversation turned into—saying, then conversation turned into—saying, then don't practice don't practice don't practice empathy, and it goes back and forth empathy, and it goes back and forth empathy, and it goes back and forth . Number three, . Number three, . Number three, what some people mean what some people mean by Christian by Christian nationalism is the nationalism is the nationalism is the rejection of rejection of rejection of non-Christians and leftists non-Christians and leftists non-Christians and leftists running our running our running our country and destroying country and destroying country and destroying it. I remember the late it. I remember the late it. I remember the late Woddy Bokem Woddy Bokem Woddy Bokem saying this in his saying this in his saying this in his speech. He said, " speech. He said, " The only two choices The only two choices The only two choices we have are we have are we have are pagan pagan pagan nationalism or nationalism or nationalism or Christian Christian Christian nationalism." I don't nationalism." I don't nationalism." I don't think this is the most think this is the most think this is the most helpful way to helpful way to helpful way to frame the discussion, frame the discussion, frame the discussion, but it but it but it resonates with a lot of resonates with a lot of resonates with a lot of people. Okay, you're not for people. Okay, you're not for people. Okay, you're not for Christian Christian Christian nationalism, I nationalism, I nationalism, I understand, you're for understand, you're for understand, you're for pagan pagan pagan globalism. These are two globalism. These are two globalism. These are two opposites. Well, no, opposites. Well, no, opposites. Well, no, I'm not for...Well, if you're not I'm not for...Well, if you're not I'm not for...Well, if you're not for pagans for pagans for pagans ruling, don't you ruling, don't you ruling, don't you want it to be want it to be want it to be Christians? And if you Christians? And if you Christians? And if you don't want Christ on the don't want Christ on the don't want Christ on the throne, then who...

throne, then who... who do you want on the who do you want on the who do you want on the throne? Four: I throne? Four: I throne? Four: I think in this cauldron, think in this cauldron, think in this cauldron, while some of these while some of these while some of these things we'll things we'll things we'll like and some of these things we like and some of these things we like and some of these things we won't—I'm going from least won't—I'm going from least won't—I'm going from least controversial to controversial to controversial to most most most controversial. Four: controversial. Four: controversial. Four: For some, this means a For some, this means a For some, this means a return to return to return to Reformed Reformed Reformed political thought. political thought. political thought. Usually 16th and 17th Usually 16th and 17th Usually 16th and 17th centuries. centuries. centuries. Reformed Reformed Reformed political thought: what political thought: what political thought: what did Calvin say? What did Calvin say? What did Calvin say? What did the did the did the Westminster Westminster Westminster theologians say? Many theologians say? Many theologians say? Many people write about what people write about what the theologians said in Dort? What the theologians said in Dort? What did the did the did the Leiden Leiden Leiden Synopsis say? Let's Synopsis say? Let's Synopsis say? Let's look at this and look at this and look at this and go back to this go back to this go back to this Reformed Reformed Reformed political thought of the 16th political thought of the 16th political thought of the 16th and 17th centuries. If it and 17th centuries. If it and 17th centuries. If it was good enough was good enough was good enough for John Calvin, for John Calvin, for John Calvin, it should be it should be it should be good enough for us. Or good enough for us. Or good enough for us. Or there was a common there was a common there was a common stable political stable political stable political philosophy that we philosophy that we philosophy that we lost. Five, for lost. Five, for lost. Five, for some, Christian some, Christian some, Christian nationalism is a nationalism is a nationalism is a historical statement historical statement . Namely, as . Namely, as . Namely, as Hodge did, the claim that Hodge did, the claim that Hodge did, the claim that America is a America is a America is a Christian nation Christian nation . Of course, this . Of course, this . Of course, this statement statement statement depends largely on the depends largely on the depends largely on the definition of our definition of our definition of our terms. Are we terms. Are we terms. Are we asking if asking if asking if America was founded by America was founded by America was founded by Christians? Truth.

Christians? Truth. Were many of our founding fathers orthodox Were many of our founding fathers orthodox evangelical evangelical evangelical Christians? That's Christians? That's Christians? That's true too. Is true too. Is true too. Is American American American self-government based on self-government based on self-government based on many many many Christian Christian Christian assumptions and assumptions and assumptions and principles? I think that's principles? I think that's principles? I think that's obviously true. Did obviously true. Did obviously true. Did they seek they seek they seek to create a nation that would be to create a nation that would be to create a nation that would be Christian? Christian? This is different. And while we This is different. And while we study study study American history, where everything is American history, where everything is American history, where everything is mixed up before we mixed up before we mixed up before we became a country and became a country and became a country and after, it's not the after, it's not the after, it's not the same set of same set of same set of moral philosophy moral philosophy moral philosophy in Philadelphia in 1787 in Philadelphia in 1787 in Philadelphia in 1787 that was in Boston that was in Boston that was in Boston in 1630. in 1630. in 1630. A lot of development has taken place here A lot of development has taken place here A lot of development has taken place here . Six, for . Six, for . Six, for some, Christian some, Christian some, Christian nationalism is the nationalism is the nationalism is the desire to see desire to see desire to see the government promote the government promote the government promote Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. The key word The key word The key word is often "promote." I is often "promote." I is often "promote." I argued that a argued that a argued that a lot depends on what is lot depends on what is meant by the word " promote." I want a promote." I want a promote." I want a civil civil civil magistrate to promote magistrate to promote magistrate to promote Christianity. Does Christianity. Does Christianity. Does this mean that I would this mean that I would this mean that I would like to see a sincere like to see a sincere like to see a sincere Christian as Christian as Christian as president? What I president? What I president? What I find helpful is a find helpful is a find helpful is a prayer breakfast, prayer breakfast, prayer breakfast, quoting the Bible in quoting the Bible in quoting the Bible in presidential presidential presidential speeches, the inscription "In God We speeches, the inscription "In God We speeches, the inscription "In God We Trust" on our coins, Trust" on our coins, Trust" on our coins, chaplains in the armed chaplains in the armed chaplains in the armed forces. Is this forces. Is this forces. Is this promoting promoting promoting Christianity? Does this Christianity? Does this Christianity? Does this mean religious mean religious mean religious oaths for oaths for oaths for officials, or officials, or citizenship tests, or citizenship tests, or government government government funding for funding for funding for church buildings? And church buildings? And church buildings? And if we say that if we say that if we say that the government should the government should the government should promote

promote promote Christianity, the Christianity, the Christianity, the next question is— next question is— what kind of Christianity? Well, what kind of Christianity? Well, what kind of Christianity? Well, obviously, obviously, obviously, Protestant Protestant Protestant Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. Of course? Uh, Of course? Uh, Of course? Uh, next question: who next question: who next question: who should define what should define what should define what type of type of type of Protestant Protestant Protestant Christianity is? Well, Christianity is? Well, Christianity is? Well, obviously the right obviously the right obviously the right type. And who do you type. And who do you type. And who do you trust to always trust to always trust to always conclude that conclude that conclude that it will be the right it will be the right it will be the right type? Because the type? Because the type? Because the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal Church, the PCUSA, and the United PCUSA, and the United PCUSA, and the United Methodist Church Methodist Church are Protestant. are Protestant. are Protestant. They would have a completely They would have a completely They would have a completely different flag to different flag to different flag to raise. Seven, raise. Seven, raise. Seven, Christian Christian Christian nationalism for nationalism for nationalism for some is a desire some is a desire some is a desire to return to the to return to the to return to the principle of a state principle of a state principle of a state church. That is, church. That is, church. That is, instead of instead of instead of churches being a churches being a churches being a voluntary voluntary voluntary association of their association of their association of their members, there is some kind of members, there is some kind of members, there is some kind of state church, like the state church, like the state church, like the Church of England, which Church of England, which Church of England, which can take various can take various can take various forms. But it could forms. But it could forms. But it could mean that the state mean that the state mean that the state provides funding, provides funding, provides funding, or the state provides or the state provides or the state provides accreditation, or the accreditation, or the accreditation, or the state provides state provides state provides buildings, or somewhere in its buildings, or somewhere in its buildings, or somewhere in its national national national legislation or legislation or legislation or royal decree there royal decree there royal decree there are Christian are Christian are Christian principles. Some say, principles. Some say, principles. Some say, "Yeah, I want to see...

"Yeah, I want to see... you know, pastor, would you you know, pastor, would you you know, pastor, would you support support support putting the putting the putting the Apostles' Apostles' Apostles' Creed into our Creed into our Creed into our Constitution?" So I Constitution?" So I Constitution?" So I say, "What next?" this is say, "What next?" this is say, "What next?" this is my next my next my next question. If question. If question. If the Constitution had the Constitution had the Constitution had said, "We the people of the said, "We the people of the said, "We the people of the United States, United States, United States, having affirmed the having affirmed the having affirmed the Apostles' Creed Apostles' Creed Apostles' Creed , do hereby , do hereby , do hereby declare," then declare," then declare," then fine. But what next? What should fine. But what next? What should fine. But what next? What should we do? Will we do? Will we do? Will this become a mechanism of this become a mechanism of this become a mechanism of suppression and suppression and suppression and persecution? What should we persecution? What should we persecution? What should we do with these do with these do with these principles? So, principles? So, principles? So, the principle of establishment the principle of establishment , eight. Many people , eight. Many people , eight. Many people in this discussion about in this discussion about in this discussion about Christian Christian Christian nationalism say nationalism say nationalism say they are for a they are for a they are for a post-liberal post-liberal post-liberal vision of the country. vision of the country. Liberalism is not in Liberalism is not in the sense of democrats the sense of democrats the sense of democrats or republicans, but or republicans, but or republicans, but as in John Locke or as in John Locke or as in John Locke or Montesquieu, the modern Montesquieu, the modern Montesquieu, the modern world as we world as we world as we understand it: with understand it: with understand it: with limited government, limited government, limited government, free trade, free trade, free trade, protection of minority rights, protection of minority rights, protection of minority rights, natural rights natural rights natural rights enshrined in enshrined in enshrined in law, law, law, the rule of law the rule of law the rule of law regulating regulating regulating democracy—that is what democracy—that is what democracy—that is what liberalism is.

liberalism is. A lot of people in this A lot of people in this community, I'm not saying community, I'm not saying community, I'm not saying everyone, but it's just everyone, but it's just everyone, but it's just different ingredients different ingredients different ingredients that people add. that people add. that people add. Postliberal Postliberal Postliberal vision. There are those who vision. There are those who vision. There are those who have gone so far as to say that have gone so far as to say that have gone so far as to say that even Presbyterians even Presbyterians , I have heard, say that the , I have heard, say that the , I have heard, say that the First Amendment was a First Amendment was a First Amendment was a bad idea. You bad idea. You bad idea. You often hear the expression " often hear the expression " post-war post-war post-war consensus," which is just a consensus," which is just a consensus," which is just a way of saying "everything way of saying "everything that happened after that happened after that happened after World War II." That's what World War II." That's what World War II." That's what we're really we're really we're really accusing them of. This is a very accusing them of. This is a very accusing them of. This is a very vague phrase. I vague phrase. I vague phrase. I think this is a way not to think this is a way not to think this is a way not to put the Founding Fathers in the spotlight put the Founding Fathers in the spotlight , because , because , because Americans generally Americans generally Americans generally love them, but the love them, but the love them, but the post-war post-war post-war consensus is already consensus is already consensus is already bad. All our bad. All our bad. All our problems then problems then problems then arise because of this arise because of this arise because of this modern order. In modern order. In modern order. In more online more online discourses in this discourses in this discourses in this context, one can context, one can context, one can hear things like hear things like hear things like "we live in a world of "we live in a world of "we live in a world of trash," "everything is trash," "everything is trash," "everything is fake," or fake," or fake," or references to the "long references to the "long references to the "long home," which is a reference home," which is a reference home," which is a reference to the feminization to the feminization to the feminization of culture. Or you'll of culture. Or you'll of culture. Or you'll see see see Pepe the Frog memes Pepe the Frog memes Pepe the Frog memes shared by users shared by users . There is a whole online . There is a whole online discourse. This is a discourse. This is a discourse. This is a post-liberal post-liberal post-liberal statement: "We don't statement: "We don't statement: "We don't want to go back want to go back want to go back to the way things were to the way things were to the way things were before." Sometimes there is, before." Sometimes there is, before." Sometimes there is, number nine, an number nine, an number nine, an impulse that is, albeit impulse that is, albeit impulse that is, albeit post-liberal, a post-liberal, a post-liberal, a yearning for something yearning for something yearning for something else, a longing for a else, a longing for a else, a longing for a lost world.

lost world. Now, I would say it's Now, I would say it's caught up in myth and caught up in myth and caught up in myth and nostalgia, a nostalgia, a nostalgia, a longing for a longing for a longing for a lost world, which lost world, which lost world, which often takes two often takes two often takes two forms: either the forms: either the forms: either the medieval world, medieval world, medieval world, so you'll see so you'll see so you'll see a lot of a lot of a lot of influencers or influencers or influencers or conferences that they conferences that they conferences that they do, and there's do, and there's do, and there's cool imagery of cool imagery of cool imagery of medieval medieval medieval knights or, you know, knights or, you know, knights or, you know, kings with their kings with their kings with their long beards, and long beards, and long beards, and they're steeped in a they're steeped in a they're steeped in a kind of kind of kind of medieval medieval medieval synthesis where there was synthesis where there was synthesis where there was Christianity; or, Christianity; or, Christianity; or, often, the antebellum often, the antebellum often, the antebellum South. Certainly South. Certainly South. Certainly you see this among you see this among you see this among Presbyterians. And not Presbyterians. And not Presbyterians. And not just "hey, we just "hey, we just "hey, we can still can still can still learn something from Dabney and learn something from Dabney and learn something from Dabney and Thornwell," which I Thornwell," which I Thornwell," which I agree with. Dabney agree with. Dabney agree with. Dabney actually made a very actually made a very actually made a very convincing convincing convincing argument against argument against argument against church institutions. church institutions. But it's a kind of But it's a kind of longing for, I would say, an longing for, I would say, an longing for, I would say, an imagined world of imagined world of imagined world of nobility, noblesse oblige nobility, noblesse oblige , where Christians , where Christians , where Christians ruled everything, where there ruled everything, where there ruled everything, where there was beauty and order, was beauty and order, was beauty and order, and maybe we're not and maybe we're not and maybe we're not talking about racial talking about racial talking about racial injustice, injustice, injustice, or maybe it does or maybe it does or maybe it does n't even matter. 10, n't even matter. 10, n't even matter. 10, I think that the I think that the I think that the assertion of assertion of assertion of Christian Christian Christian nationalism nationalism nationalism is for some a is for some a is for some a confirmation or confirmation or confirmation or expression of the principle of expression of the principle of expression of the principle of "no enemies "no enemies "no enemies on the right." Just on the right." Just on the right." Just no one. This is the no one. This is the no one. This is the safest place.

safest place. safest place. No one will pass me on No one will pass me on No one will pass me on the right. 11, the right. 11, the right. 11, Christian Christian Christian nationalism is sometimes nationalism is sometimes nationalism is sometimes intended to intended to intended to signal signal signal dissatisfaction with dissatisfaction with dissatisfaction with elites. Pointing out the elites. Pointing out the elites. Pointing out the failures of the elite, failures of the elite, failures of the elite, say, in say, in say, in COVID policy, mass COVID policy, mass COVID policy, mass immigration, or " immigration, or " vocism." So there vocism." So there vocism." So there is a subversive is a subversive is a subversive aspect to this. Often aspect to this. Often aspect to this. Often perceived as perceived as perceived as someone who someone who someone who has been oppressed, someone has been oppressed, someone has been oppressed, someone who has been left who has been left who has been left out, a out, a out, a wronged wronged wronged outsider. And outsider. And outsider. And remember how remember how remember how digital digital digital ecosystems work: you don't ecosystems work: you don't ecosystems work: you don't need a majority. need a majority. need a majority. You don't need a You don't need a You don't need a significant number of significant number of significant number of supporters. You supporters. You supporters. You need a tiny need a tiny need a tiny fraction of very dedicated fraction of very dedicated fraction of very dedicated and vocal and vocal and vocal followers. That's all it followers. That's all it takes to takes to takes to make a fuss. 12, make a fuss. 12, make a fuss. 12, sometimes Christian sometimes Christian sometimes Christian nationalism nationalism nationalism is associated with an is associated with an is associated with an unwavering unwavering unwavering commitment to MAGA. 13, commitment to MAGA. 13, commitment to MAGA. 13, Christian Christian Christian nationalism is often nationalism is often nationalism is often associated with a newer associated with a newer associated with a newer postmillennialist postmillennialist postmillennialist vision of social vision of social vision of social transformation. I would transformation. I would transformation. I would argue that this is a argue that this is a argue that this is a newer newer newer postmillennialist postmillennialist postmillennialist vision.

vision. vision. Postmillennialism, Postmillennialism, Postmillennialism, although I am an amillennialist, although I am an amillennialist, although I am an amillennialist, postmillennialism postmillennialism postmillennialism certainly does not certainly does not certainly does not go beyond go beyond go beyond orthodoxy. However, I orthodoxy. However, I orthodoxy. However, I think our think our think our Reformed ancestors, Reformed ancestors, Reformed ancestors, as John said yesterday, is as John said yesterday, is as John said yesterday, is one of the reasons why it's one of the reasons why it's one of the reasons why it's hard to tell whether hard to tell whether hard to tell whether you're an amillennialist or a you're an amillennialist or a you're an amillennialist or a postmillennialist? postmillennialist? Because I don't think there Because I don't think there was a clear was a clear was a clear distinction between the distinction between the distinction between the optimistic optimistic optimistic amillennialist, who amillennialist, who amillennialist, who believes that the nations believes that the nations believes that the nations will come to Christ, and will come to Christ, and will come to Christ, and I think that at the same time there I think that at the same time there I think that at the same time there will be an will be an will be an increase in evil, and the increase in evil, and the increase in evil, and the postmillennialist postmillennialist postmillennialist view, which says, " view, which says, " Ultimately, this will smoothly Ultimately, this will smoothly Ultimately, this will smoothly transition into the millennial transition into the millennial transition into the millennial era." I don't think there era." I don't think there era." I don't think there is a clear difference between them is a clear difference between them is a clear difference between them . Where, I believe, the . Where, I believe, the . Where, I believe, the newer newer newer postmillennialist postmillennialist postmillennialist vision is often vision is often vision is often the engine that drives the engine that drives the engine that drives or enables or enables or enables political prescriptions. And political prescriptions. And political prescriptions. And I think you see I think you see I think you see some people some people some people leaning towards leaning towards leaning towards postmillennialism postmillennialism postmillennialism because it gives them the because it gives them the because it gives them the momentum they need. momentum they need. momentum they need. What do I mean? Well, What do I mean? Well, What do I mean? Well, if postmillennialism if postmillennialism is true, then when is true, then when is true, then when the reporter asks, " the reporter asks, " the reporter asks, " So, okay, so So, okay, so So, okay, so Muslims can't Muslims can't Muslims can't worship in this worship in this worship in this country..." Roman country..." Roman Catholics Catholics are idolaters, are idolaters, are idolaters, they can't they can't they can't worship. What is your worship. What is your worship. What is your next step?

next step? Salt mines? Salt mines? Prisons? What? Prisons? What? Postmillennialism Postmillennialism allows someone allows someone allows someone to say, "Well, we're to say, "Well, we're to say, "Well, we're playing the long game, and it's going to take playing the long game, and it's going to take playing the long game, and it's going to take 300 years 300 years 300 years before this works, and all before this works, and all before this works, and all we need to do now is we need to do now is we need to do now is lay down the lay down the lay down the principles." I think that principles." I think that principles." I think that often in the discussion of often in the discussion of often in the discussion of Christian Christian Christian nationalism, nationalism, nationalism, its main proponents its main proponents its main proponents have the intellectual have the intellectual have the intellectual advantage of practical advantage of practical advantage of practical impossibility. That is, impossibility. That is, impossibility. That is, they will never have a they will never have a they will never have a chance to chance to chance to experience the experience the experience the real implementation of real implementation of real implementation of their ideas or their ideas or their ideas or see how this see how this see how this vision will work vision will work vision will work in practice. And they in practice. And they in practice. And they say, "Well, it's a say, "Well, it's a say, "Well, it's a matter of matter of matter of prudence, and it prudence, and it prudence, and it could take 300 years could take 300 years ." We are just ." We are just ." We are just establishing establishing establishing principles now. We are principles now. We are principles now. We are actually dividing actually dividing actually dividing many Christians many Christians many Christians right now over right now over right now over things that have no things that have no things that have no chance of being chance of being chance of being realized. We are realized. We are realized. We are talking about a nation of talking about a nation of talking about a nation of 330 million people. And 330 million people. And 330 million people. And as far as I know, there is as far as I know, there is as far as I know, there is not yet not yet not yet a single district in the country that has a single district in the country that has a single district in the country that has become Christian- become Christian- nationalist according to nationalist according to nationalist according to this vision. I also this vision. I also this vision. I also think number 14, I have think number 14, I have think number 14, I have exactly 15.

exactly 15. exactly 15. Christian Christian Christian nationalism is often nationalism is often nationalism is often associated, especially associated, especially associated, especially in the academic in the academic in the academic work of Stephen work of Stephen work of Stephen Wolfe and others, with a Wolfe and others, with a Wolfe and others, with a certain idea of ​​the nation. certain idea of ​​the nation. Most Most people in our churches today people in our churches today people in our churches today do not differentiate do not differentiate do not differentiate between country, nation, between country, nation, between country, nation, nationalism, nationalism, nationalism, patriotism—for patriotism—for patriotism—for them, it's all the them, it's all the them, it's all the same. But many same. But many same. But many scholars argue, and scholars argue, and scholars argue, and I find it convincing, I find it convincing, I find it convincing, that nationalism as a that nationalism as a that nationalism as a phenomenon probably phenomenon probably phenomenon probably emerged after the emerged after the emerged after the French French French Revolution. The concept of " Revolution. The concept of " nation" is often nation" is often nation" is often defined very defined very defined very vaguely. So, according vaguely. So, according vaguely. So, according to some approaches, to some approaches, to some approaches, a nation is what we a nation is what we a nation is what we think of as a nation: think of as a nation: think of as a nation: the United States the United States the United States of America, Canada, the of America, Canada, the of America, Canada, the flag that flag that flag that flies, the anthem flies, the anthem flies, the anthem that you sing that you sing that you sing when your country when your country when your country wins a gold medal. wins a gold medal. wins a gold medal. TGC doesn't win gold TGC doesn't win gold TGC doesn't win gold medals, medals, medals, countries win them. But others countries win them. But others countries win them. But others say that a nation is say that a nation is say that a nation is more of an ethnicity more of an ethnicity more of an ethnicity . And that's when . And that's when . And that's when you get to the you get to the you get to the idea that nations should idea that nations should idea that nations should maybe not maybe not maybe not intermarry intermarry intermarry . Nations as . Nations as . Nations as ethnicities have such ethnicities have such ethnicities have such different cultures and different cultures and different cultures and people, and Allen Gelso people, and Allen Gelso people, and Allen Gelso has proven that this has has proven that this has has proven that this has much more in much more in much more in common with the common with the common with the "blood "blood "blood and soil" nationalism of and soil" nationalism of and soil" nationalism of German German German Romanticism than with Romanticism than with Romanticism than with anything that grew anything that grew anything that grew on American on American on American soil. So there is often a soil. So there is often a soil. So there is often a rejection rejection rejection of what you would of what you would of what you would call a creedal call a creedal call a creedal view of the nation. What it view of the nation. What it view of the nation. What it means to be means to be means to be American, American, American, for example, has many for example, has many for example, has many different meanings; but I different meanings; but I different meanings; but I think many would still think many would still think many would still say if you say if you say if you can ratify can ratify can ratify the Declaration of

the Declaration of the Declaration of Independence and Independence and Independence and ratify ratify ratify the Constitution, if you're the Constitution, if you're the Constitution, if you're not an American, then not an American, then not an American, then at least that's what it at least that's what it at least that's what it essentially means to be an essentially means to be an essentially means to be an American. Many will American. Many will American. Many will say: no, this say: no, this say: no, this religious religious religious definition is definition is definition is erroneous. That's why erroneous. That's why erroneous. That's why you see the term " you see the term " hereditary Americans hereditary Americans ." Which is false and ." Which is false and ." Which is false and malicious, and how many malicious, and how many malicious, and how many of us are hereditary of us are hereditary of us are hereditary Americans, and some Americans, and some Americans, and some of us are hereditary of us are hereditary of us are hereditary Americans who people Americans who people Americans who people don't want to see as don't want to see as don't want to see as hereditary hereditary hereditary Americans. To Americans. To Americans. To try try try to distinguish these nations. to distinguish these nations. And then 15, And then 15, Christian Christian Christian nationalism—it's nationalism—it's nationalism—it's frankly sometimes a frankly sometimes a frankly sometimes a cover for, or cover for, or cover for, or increasingly not even a increasingly not even a increasingly not even a cover for, cover for, cover for, overt racism, overt racism, overt racism, anti-Semitism, or anti-Semitism, or anti-Semitism, or anti-foreign anti-foreign anti-foreign sentiment. And one of the sentiment. And one of the sentiment. And one of the strategies, I think, is to strategies, I think, is to question question one of those 15 one of those 15 one of those 15 elements, and then elements, and then elements, and then be against all of those 15 be against all of those 15 be against all of those 15 elements. So, are you for elements. So, are you for elements. So, are you for open borders? I do open borders? I do open borders? I do n't think I talked n't think I talked n't think I talked about that. So you about that. So you about that. So you think the government think the government think the government should have none, should have none, should have none, it should it should it should just be completely just be completely just be completely neutral and just neutral and just neutral and just pretend that pretend that pretend that Christianity doesn't Christianity doesn't Christianity doesn't exist. That's not what I exist. That's not what I exist. That's not what I said. My said. My recommendation for us, recommendation for us, right now I'm eating up our time right now I'm eating up our time right now I'm eating up our time for questions and for questions and for questions and answers. Is this answers. Is this answers. Is this okay, Colin? He did okay, Colin? He did okay, Colin? He did n't say anything. That's n't say anything. That's n't say anything. That's right. I think, just right. I think, just right. I think, just about the positives and then the

about the positives and then the about the positives and then the dangers, I dangers, I dangers, I think the positives, I would think the positives, I would think the positives, I would encourage each of encourage each of encourage each of us. I think this is a us. I think this is a us. I think this is a room of people who don't room of people who don't room of people who don't raise their hand to raise their hand to raise their hand to say "yes" to say "yes" to say "yes" to Christian Christian Christian Nationalism. Nationalism. Nationalism. Before we get to Before we get to Before we get to that, I really that, I really that, I really think we need to think we need to think we need to listen to the people in listen to the people in listen to the people in our church, what they our church, what they our church, what they might be trying to might be trying to might be trying to say. Not bad say. Not bad say. Not bad actors on the internet, actors on the internet, actors on the internet, people who have a genuine people who have a genuine people who have a genuine sense of loss, sense of loss, sense of loss, fear, anger, fear, anger, fear, anger, distrust, who truly distrust, who truly distrust, who truly say that say that say that progressivism is progressivism is progressivism is bad, socialism has bad, socialism has bad, socialism has never worked, never worked, never worked, Marxism is bad, the Marxism is bad, the Marxism is bad, the LGBT agenda LGBT agenda is bad. And listen is bad. And listen is bad. And listen and confirm what and confirm what and confirm what we can, we can, we can, noting these noting these noting these problems. And one of the problems. And one of the problems. And one of the things that I, that the things that I, that the things that I, that the internet does is it internet does is it internet does is it smooths out our experience smooths out our experience smooths out our experience so that you can so that you can so that you can perceive any perceive any perceive any danger that you want to danger that you want to danger that you want to perceive. If someone perceive. If someone perceive. If someone says the biggest says the biggest says the biggest problem you problem you problem you face today face today face today and someone says, “Well, it’s and someone says, “Well, it’s and someone says, “Well, it’s obviously wouk- obviously wouk- progressives. progressives. progressives. Look, Look, Look, look what they're look what they're look what they're doing. And didn't you doing. And didn't you doing. And didn't you see this on the news see this on the news see this on the news that just happened?" And that just happened?" And that just happened?" And all of this would be true.

all of this would be true. all of this would be true. And you can And you can And you can prove it. And then someone prove it. And then someone prove it. And then someone else says, “But else says, “But else says, “But wait a minute, that’s wait a minute, that’s wait a minute, that’s not true. None of these not true. None of these not true. None of these people are in your people are in your people are in your church." In fact, the church." In fact, the church." In fact, the biggest danger biggest danger is someone who has just is someone who has just is someone who has just been radicalized been radicalized been radicalized by listening to Tucker by listening to Tucker by listening to Tucker Carlson. I Carlson. I Carlson. I was telling the people at was telling the people at was telling the people at my table that I my table that I my table that I was talking to a friend was talking to a friend was talking to a friend who said, "Pastor who said, "Pastor who said, "Pastor Kevin, what, what Kevin, what, what Kevin, what, what theological question is this theological question is this ? What, what should we ? What, what should we ? What, what should we think about Israel?" I think about Israel?" I think about Israel?" I replied, "Oh, you've replied, "Oh, you've replied, "Oh, you've never never never asked me that asked me that asked me that question before." I gave a question before." I gave a question before." I gave a sort of sort of sort of theological theological theological answer, and they answer, and they answer, and they kept kept kept asking, "Now, asking, "Now, asking, "Now, what do you think? Don't what do you think? Don't what do you think? Don't you think that over the you think that over the you think that over the last 100 years, last 100 years, last 100 years, almost all the world almost all the world almost all the world wars have been fought because of wars have been fought because of wars have been fought because of Israel?" Like, okay, Israel?" Like, okay, Israel?" Like, okay, now. What I'm used to now. What I'm used to now. What I'm used to in my context in my context in my context is either a pro- is either a pro- is either a pro- Israeli Israeli Israeli position or a pro-pro-pro position or a pro-pro-pro -Israeli one. This is -Israeli one. This is -Israeli one. This is usually how it usually how it usually how it happens happens happens . So, where did this . So, where did this . So, where did this come from? We come from? We come from? We asked further, and I asked further, and I asked further, and I said, "Can I said, "Can I said, "Can I ask where this is from?" ask where this is from?" ask where this is from?" He replied, "I He replied, "I He replied, "I listen to Tucker a lot." listen to Tucker a lot." And then I asked, " And then I asked, " Have you ever Have you ever Have you ever listened to Ben Shapiro?"

listened to Ben Shapiro?" listened to Ben Shapiro?" I don't like Ben I don't like Ben I don't like Ben Shapiro. So he Shapiro. So he Shapiro. So he can't even can't even can't even accept those accept those accept those guys whose ideas guys whose ideas guys whose ideas are getting through, especially are getting through, especially are getting through, especially to young men. to young men. I think being I think being open is good. open is good. open is good. I think it's a valid I think it's a valid I think it's a valid criticism that criticism that criticism that Christians have sometimes been Christians have sometimes been Christians have sometimes been too forgiving, too forgiving, too forgiving, lacking lacking lacking confidence in the confidence in the confidence in the public sphere. public sphere. I would say that the past, I would say that the past, which people which people which people look back on with great look back on with great look back on with great nostalgia, is often nostalgia, is often nostalgia, is often overvalued, almost overvalued, almost overvalued, almost mythical. If you mythical. If you mythical. If you ask any ask any ask any historian who really historian who really historian who really knows their stuff: knows their stuff: knows their stuff: what era would you like to what era would you like to what era would you like to live in? You will always live in? You will always live in? You will always be told—now. be told—now. Air conditioners, Air conditioners, air travel, air travel, air travel, antibiotics. I love antibiotics. I love antibiotics. I love old Princeton. I old Princeton. I old Princeton. I love old love old love old Princeton. I remember Princeton. I remember Princeton. I remember reading that, you know, reading that, you know, reading that, you know, David Calhoun's work, David Calhoun's work, David Calhoun's work, those two volumes about those two volumes about those two volumes about Princeton. And I just Princeton. And I just Princeton. And I just thought to myself, "God, that would be thought to myself, "God, that would be thought to myself, "God, that would be cool." Those were the cool." Those were the cool." Those were the times. And then I times. And then I times. And then I read that read that read that Charles Hodge had Charles Hodge had bleeding problems and bleeding problems and had to have 12 had to have 12 had to have 12 leeches applied to his groin. Like, leeches applied to his groin. Like, leeches applied to his groin. Like, 2025, I'm coming to you.

2025, I'm coming to you. Leave your Leave your groin leeches in the past. groin leeches in the past. So we need to be So we need to be aware of these aware of these aware of these dangers, dangers, dangers, trying trying trying to understand what is to understand what is to understand what is driving this. driving this. I am talking about sincere I am talking about sincere Christians in your Christians in your Christians in your churches. And there are also bad churches. And there are also bad churches. And there are also bad players online. players online. A few other A few other encouraging encouraging encouraging recommendations to recommendations to recommendations to conclude. conclude. Remember that doing Remember that doing something doesn't necessarily something doesn't necessarily something doesn't necessarily mean talking about mean talking about mean talking about it online. That's what we it online. That's what we it online. That's what we get. Pastor, get. Pastor, get. Pastor, you, what do you want you, what do you want you, what do you want them to change the them to change the them to change the gender of your children? You gender of your children? You gender of your children? You don't... You want to--you're don't... You want to--you're don't... You want to--you're going to going to going to step away from step away from step away from politics? Um, I think politics? Um, I think politics? Um, I think my position is pretty my position is pretty my position is pretty clear: I've clear: I've clear: I've spoken out on spoken out on spoken out on homosexuality, homosexuality, homosexuality, abortion, racism, abortion, racism, abortion, racism, transgenderism— transgenderism— all of that. But don't be all of that. But don't be all of that. But don't be fooled by this. If fooled by this. If fooled by this. If you don't write you don't write you don't write something on the internet right now, it's something on the internet right now, it's something on the internet right now, it's like you're not like you're not like you're not doing anything. You raise a doing anything. You raise a doing anything. You raise a family, you pastor a family, you pastor a family, you pastor a church, you church, you church, you preach, you preach, you preach, you pray. And pray. And pray. And remember, the news remember, the news remember, the news makes you makes you makes you stupid. One of stupid. One of stupid. One of my favorite books, my favorite books, my favorite books, John Somerville, and John Somerville, and John Somerville, and TGC TGC TGC has had articles over the years about has had articles over the years about has had articles over the years about why the news makes why the news makes why the news makes you stupid.

you stupid. you stupid. The news tells you The news tells you The news tells you what to think, but none of what to think, but none of what to think, but none of us know what is us know what is us know what is really really really going on in the world. going on in the world. going on in the world. The news tells you that the The news tells you that the The news tells you that the most important thing is the most important thing is the most important thing is the woman who strangled woman who strangled woman who strangled her children. This is what her children. This is what her children. This is what everyone everyone everyone should be talking about right now. I don't should be talking about right now. I don't should be talking about right now. I don't judge people for judge people for judge people for writing about writing about writing about Dolly Parton. She Dolly Parton. She Dolly Parton. She did many did many did many good things. I good things. I good things. I made it clear to our made it clear to our made it clear to our assistant pastor assistant pastor assistant pastor this week: Under no this week: Under no this week: Under no circumstances should we circumstances should we circumstances should we include Dolly include Dolly include Dolly Parton in prayer. Parton in prayer. Parton in prayer. Maybe you did Maybe you did Maybe you did because you're here in East because you're here in East because you're here in East Tennessee, and I Tennessee, and I Tennessee, and I accept that, but what I'm saying is accept that, but what I'm saying is accept that, but what I'm saying is that the news is forcing upon that the news is forcing upon that the news is forcing upon us what a us what a us what a small group of people small group of people small group of people think we should think we should think we should talk about. And it's amazing talk about. And it's amazing how conservative how conservative how conservative evangelicals evangelicals are simultaneously accused of being political political political sellouts sellouts sellouts trying trying trying to build an to build an to build an American American American theocracy and of being theocracy and of being theocracy and of being dreamy dreamy dreamy cowards who have cowards who have cowards who have withdrawn from withdrawn from withdrawn from public life. public life. That is, just choose what we are we are we are wrong about and wrong about and wrong about and stick to it. stick to it. OK. By their OK. By their fruits you will know them. fruits you will know them.

fruits you will know them. I'm 49 now, I'm so I'm 49 now, I'm so I'm 49 now, I'm so old. The older I old. The older I old. The older I get, I'm sure you get, I'm sure you get, I'm sure you understand that too. The understand that too. The understand that too. The more I feel: more I feel: more I feel: man, I have a lot of man, I have a lot of man, I have a lot of time for people with time for people with time for people with whom I may whom I may whom I may disagree on something. And disagree on something. And disagree on something. And they are brother and they are brother and they are brother and sister. She loves the sister. She loves the sister. She loves the Lord. She is sincere. Lord. She is sincere. Lord. She is sincere. She loves church. She loves church. She loves church. She loves She loves She loves the Gospel. We can the Gospel. We can ...I respect them. They ...I respect them. They ...I respect them. They lead with integrity, lead with integrity, lead with integrity, more than I respect more than I respect more than I respect people whose fruits in people whose fruits in people whose fruits in public life are not public life are not public life are not in keeping with the Spirit. I in keeping with the Spirit. I in keeping with the Spirit. I had had had a lot more in my notes, but a lot more in my notes, but a lot more in my notes, but I won't get to them, I won't get to them, I won't get to them, so we'll invite a so we'll invite a so we'll invite a panel. Thank you.