Rick Rubin: The Only Skill That Matters Now Is The One Thing AI Can Never Steal!

Jay-Z wrote in a way that no one else Jay-Z wrote in a way that no one else wrote. All the other rappers that I wrote. All the other rappers that I wrote. All the other rappers that I worked with spent a lot of time writing worked with spent a lot of time writing worked with spent a lot of time writing lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. And when I played [music] him lyrics. And when I played [music] him lyrics. And when I played [music] him the beat for 99 Problems, he said, the beat for 99 Problems, he said, the beat for 99 Problems, he said, "Okay, just keep playing it over and "Okay, just keep playing it over and "Okay, just keep playing it over and over again." And he sat in the back of over again." And he sat in the back of over again." And he sat in the back of the room. You could hear him mumbling or the room. You could hear him mumbling or the room. You could hear him mumbling or humming. After [music] 20 or 30 minutes, humming. After [music] 20 or 30 minutes, humming. After [music] 20 or 30 minutes, he's like, "Okay, I got it." And ran he's like, "Okay, I got it." And ran he's like, "Okay, I got it." And ran into the other room and did the first into the other room and did the first into the other room and did the first verse. He did, let's say, three takes. verse. He did, let's say, three takes. verse. He did, let's say, three takes. And then he came in, he listened to him. And then he came in, he listened to him. And then he came in, he listened to him. He's like, "Oh, yeah. I think the second He's like, "Oh, yeah. I think the second He's like, "Oh, yeah. I think the second one's good." It just happens in his one's good." It just happens in his one's good." It just happens in his mind. mind. mind. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And then this big list of people that >> And then this big list of people that >> And then this big list of people that you've worked with. I mean, it's just you've worked with. I mean, it's just you've worked with. I mean, it's just this unbelievable list. Jay-Z and Kanye this unbelievable list. Jay-Z and Kanye this unbelievable list. Jay-Z and Kanye Adel, Justin Timberlake, and MC Jagger Adel, Justin Timberlake, and MC Jagger Adel, Justin Timberlake, and MC Jagger and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why do and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why do and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why do you think these people call you? Because you think these people call you? Because you think these people call you? Because I've been making things for 40 years and I've been making things for 40 years and I've been making things for 40 years and I started making music as a hobby. It I started making music as a hobby. It I started making music as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life of its own and ended up taking on a life of its own and ended up taking on a life of its own and becoming a business. And that list, becoming a business. And that list, becoming a business. And that list, they're not special. I would say they're they're not special. I would say they're they're not special. I would say they're ordinary people who made a decision. I ordinary people who made a decision. I ordinary people who made a decision. I think of Eminem as a good example. think of Eminem as a good example. think of Eminem as a good example. Eminem is someone who's always writing Eminem is someone who's always writing Eminem is someone who's always writing because he wants to be the best he could because he wants to be the best he could because he wants to be the best he could possibly be and he's insanely obsessive possibly be and he's insanely obsessive possibly be and he's insanely obsessive about that. It about that. It about that. It >> appears that some people are just like >> appears that some people are just like >> appears that some people are just like inherently more creative than others.

inherently more creative than others. inherently more creative than others. >> Well, creativity is beaten out of us >> Well, creativity is beaten out of us >> Well, creativity is beaten out of us over the course of our lives. We go to over the course of our lives. We go to over the course of our lives. We go to school, we're taught to follow rules. school, we're taught to follow rules. school, we're taught to follow rules. The rules are not there to help us. The The rules are not there to help us. The The rules are not there to help us. The rules are there to control us. We're not rules are there to control us. We're not rules are there to control us. We're not taught to be free creative thinkers. So, taught to be free creative thinkers. So, taught to be free creative thinkers. So, I'm suggesting we break free and express I'm suggesting we break free and express I'm suggesting we break free and express ourselves freely. How? Well, all of the ourselves freely. How? Well, all of the ourselves freely. How? Well, all of the best things involve risk. It's only best things involve risk. It's only best things involve risk. It's only through the risk that the greatness is through the risk that the greatness is through the risk that the greatness is shown. And so something needs to die. shown. And so something needs to die. shown. And so something needs to die. That lifestyle in that moment, that That lifestyle in that moment, that That lifestyle in that moment, that career path, that relationship, that's career path, that relationship, that's career path, that relationship, that's what needs to die. Is there a step one what needs to die. Is there a step one what needs to die. Is there a step one in that direction for people that want in that direction for people that want in that direction for people that want to hit the reset button? to hit the reset button? to hit the reset button? >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is >> your early 30s, you had a depressive >> your early 30s, you had a depressive >> your early 30s, you had a depressive episode yourself. episode yourself. episode yourself. >> Yeah. It was [music] really a tough >> Yeah. It was [music] really a tough >> Yeah. It was [music] really a tough time. I felt like the rug had been time. I felt like the rug had been time. I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me. started having pulled out from under me. started having pulled out from under me. started having panic attacks and couldn't sleep and got panic attacks and couldn't sleep and got panic attacks and couldn't sleep and got really sick and it felt like I was shot really sick and it felt like I was shot really sick and it felt like I was shot with a poison arrow. Take me [music] with a poison arrow. Take me [music] with a poison arrow. Take me [music] into that part of your life. So, um, here is a strange fact. Most of the here is a strange fact. Most of the people watching this right now, about people watching this right now, about people watching this right now, about 58% of you aren't yet subscribed to this 58% of you aren't yet subscribed to this 58% of you aren't yet subscribed to this channel. Statistically, that is probably channel. Statistically, that is probably channel. Statistically, that is probably you. So, could I ask you a small favor?

you. So, could I ask you a small favor? you. So, could I ask you a small favor? If this channel has ever given you any If this channel has ever given you any If this channel has ever given you any value at all, please could you do me a value at all, please could you do me a value at all, please could you do me a favor and hit the subscribe button. It favor and hit the subscribe button. It favor and hit the subscribe button. It [clears throat] costs nothing. It helps [clears throat] costs nothing. It helps [clears throat] costs nothing. It helps us more than you could know. And the us more than you could know. And the us more than you could know. And the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the more we can invest in the guests and the more we can invest in the guests and the more we can invest in the guests and the production. So, thank you so much. the production. So, thank you so much. the production. So, thank you so much. And I hope you enjoy this episode. And I hope you enjoy this episode. And I hope you enjoy this episode. [music] >> I'm going to start Rick where my >> I'm going to start Rick where my curiosity is. curiosity is. curiosity is. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> How do you sort of self-categorize or >> How do you sort of self-categorize or >> How do you sort of self-categorize or selfidentify in terms of like your selfidentify in terms of like your selfidentify in terms of like your profession? profession? profession? >> H I would say I'm involved in art and >> H I would say I'm involved in art and >> H I would say I'm involved in art and creativity. And what is your involvement creativity. And what is your involvement creativity. And what is your involvement in art and creativity? in art and creativity? in art and creativity? >> Might be as a coach. >> Might be as a coach. >> Might be as a coach. It might be as a uh collaborator. It might be as a uh collaborator. It might be as a uh collaborator. >> It might come up in a film project or it >> It might come up in a film project or it >> It might come up in a film project or it might come up in someone who's has a might come up in someone who's has a might come up in someone who's has a startup who wants to talk about what are startup who wants to talk about what are startup who wants to talk about what are the things creative solutions. any any the things creative solutions. any any the things creative solutions. any any problem that we have or any anything we problem that we have or any anything we problem that we have or any anything we want to get better at, there's usually a want to get better at, there's usually a want to get better at, there's usually a creative path creative path creative path to improve or at least to test to see if to improve or at least to test to see if to improve or at least to test to see if there are other ways around. Often the there are other ways around. Often the there are other ways around. Often the accepted version of how to move forward accepted version of how to move forward accepted version of how to move forward is another limitation.

is another limitation. is another limitation. >> I'm very curious about your principles >> I'm very curious about your principles >> I'm very curious about your principles as it relates to finding the solution, as it relates to finding the solution, as it relates to finding the solution, whether that's in business or whether whether that's in business or whether whether that's in business or whether it's in music. Um, and I'm I'm really it's in music. Um, and I'm I'm really it's in music. Um, and I'm I'm really interested in if there's any interested in if there's any interested in if there's any similarities in the process of finding a similarities in the process of finding a similarities in the process of finding a solution because I'm an entrepreneur. I solution because I'm an entrepreneur. I solution because I'm an entrepreneur. I guess I'm a podcaster as well. I do guess I'm a podcaster as well. I do guess I'm a podcaster as well. I do investments all day every day. I'm in investments all day every day. I'm in investments all day every day. I'm in the pursuit of a solution to a problem, the pursuit of a solution to a problem, the pursuit of a solution to a problem, a people problem, a creative problem. a people problem, a creative problem. a people problem, a creative problem. Do you have any highle principles that Do you have any highle principles that Do you have any highle principles that are broadly applicable irrespective of are broadly applicable irrespective of are broadly applicable irrespective of the type of problem you're solving? the type of problem you're solving? the type of problem you're solving? >> I'll tell you an interesting one. A word >> I'll tell you an interesting one. A word >> I'll tell you an interesting one. A word I've been thinking about lately is I've been thinking about lately is I've been thinking about lately is indefensible. Indefensible is a funny indefensible. Indefensible is a funny indefensible. Indefensible is a funny word because it's a it's a really word because it's a it's a really word because it's a it's a really projorative word. It's a strong projorative word. It's a strong projorative word. It's a strong projorative. projorative. projorative. If something is indefensible, If something is indefensible, If something is indefensible, it's not just bad. Indefensible is is it's not just bad. Indefensible is is it's not just bad. Indefensible is is really really really extreme. extreme. extreme. I'm thinking that in making art, I'm thinking that in making art, I'm thinking that in making art, indefensible is actually a good thing. indefensible is actually a good thing. indefensible is actually a good thing. Maybe not only a good thing, maybe a Maybe not only a good thing, maybe a Maybe not only a good thing, maybe a necessary thing.

necessary thing. necessary thing. that you take things to the extreme that you take things to the extreme that you take things to the extreme that are indefensible. that are indefensible. that are indefensible. I can't tell you why. I can't tell you why. I can't tell you why. I can't tell you why because it's beyond I can't tell you why because it's beyond I can't tell you why because it's beyond reason. So, I'm I'm in that camp of reason is a So, I'm I'm in that camp of reason is a is a tiny sliver of how decisions get is a tiny sliver of how decisions get is a tiny sliver of how decisions get made. made. made. And I I would be much more in the camp And I I would be much more in the camp And I I would be much more in the camp of intuition of intuition of intuition or maybe some sort of a or maybe some sort of a or maybe some sort of a guide guidance from the universe. guide guidance from the universe. guide guidance from the universe. Openness to being guided by Openness to being guided by Openness to being guided by something more something something more something something more something the creative force of the universe. You the creative force of the universe. You the creative force of the universe. You could call it God. I call it God. You're could call it God. I call it God. You're could call it God. I call it God. You're not required to. What art that you've not required to. What art that you've not required to. What art that you've been involved in creating would you been involved in creating would you been involved in creating would you would you define in the moment as being would you define in the moment as being would you define in the moment as being indefensible? indefensible? indefensible? >> A little over a year ago there was a >> A little over a year ago there was a >> A little over a year ago there was a meme about vibe coding.

meme about vibe coding. meme about vibe coding. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The way it started was if something new >> The way it started was if something new >> The way it started was if something new happened. A guy named Andrev Carpathy happened. A guy named Andrev Carpathy happened. A guy named Andrev Carpathy coined the term vibe coding. I didn't coined the term vibe coding. I didn't coined the term vibe coding. I didn't know what it was. That same day that he know what it was. That same day that he know what it was. That same day that he coined the term and tweeted about it. coined the term and tweeted about it. coined the term and tweeted about it. Someone put a picture of me with my Someone put a picture of me with my Someone put a picture of me with my wearing headphones with my eyes closed, wearing headphones with my eyes closed, wearing headphones with my eyes closed, hand on a mouse. And that image became hand on a mouse. And that image became hand on a mouse. And that image became associated with vibe coding. Had nothing associated with vibe coding. Had nothing associated with vibe coding. Had nothing to do with me. I saw it. I didn't know to do with me. I saw it. I didn't know to do with me. I saw it. I didn't know what it meant. But then over the next what it meant. But then over the next what it meant. But then over the next few days, friends started sending me few days, friends started sending me few days, friends started sending me hundreds of this image associated with hundreds of this image associated with hundreds of this image associated with vibe coding in all different ways. And I vibe coding in all different ways. And I vibe coding in all different ways. And I thought, hm, [clears throat] thought, hm, [clears throat] thought, hm, [clears throat] now the the old me, precreative act me now the the old me, precreative act me now the the old me, precreative act me would have laughed and moved on with my would have laughed and moved on with my would have laughed and moved on with my life. And one of the things that I life. And one of the things that I life. And one of the things that I learned through working on the creative learned through working on the creative learned through working on the creative act, one of the things it talks about a act, one of the things it talks about a act, one of the things it talks about a lot is lot is lot is we're given information all the time we're given information all the time we're given information all the time around us. There are all these uh around us. There are all these uh around us. There are all these uh opportunities or invitations opportunities or invitations opportunities or invitations being made all the time. In the past, if being made all the time. In the past, if being made all the time. In the past, if someone told me about a movie that someone told me about a movie that someone told me about a movie that sounded like I didn't want to see it, sounded like I didn't want to see it, sounded like I didn't want to see it, that doesn't sound like it's for me, I that doesn't sound like it's for me, I that doesn't sound like it's for me, I would I would ignore it. But if two or would I would ignore it. But if two or would I would ignore it. But if two or three people say you might want to see three people say you might want to see three people say you might want to see this movie, I might even if it's not this movie, I might even if it's not this movie, I might even if it's not interesting to me, it's almost like the interesting to me, it's almost like the interesting to me, it's almost like the universe some too much energy behind universe some too much energy behind universe some too much energy behind this. So this was an example of a lot of this. So this was an example of a lot of this. So this was an example of a lot of energy coming towards me relating to energy coming towards me relating to energy coming towards me relating to vibe coding. I don't know what it is.

vibe coding. I don't know what it is. vibe coding. I don't know what it is. And I thought, okay, how do I And I thought, okay, how do I And I thought, okay, how do I participate? If I want to participate in participate? If I want to participate in participate? If I want to participate in this thing that's going on, this thing that's going on, this thing that's going on, [clears throat] an experiment, creative [clears throat] an experiment, creative [clears throat] an experiment, creative experiment. And I thought, okay, I'm experiment. And I thought, okay, I'm experiment. And I thought, okay, I'm going to write a joke tweet going to write a joke tweet going to write a joke tweet related to vibe coding. I thought about related to vibe coding. I thought about related to vibe coding. I thought about it and came up with tools will come, it and came up with tools will come, it and came up with tools will come, tools will go, only the vibe coder tools will go, only the vibe coder tools will go, only the vibe coder remains. And typically the tweets get remains. And typically the tweets get remains. And typically the tweets get 10,000 20,000 views. I look the next day 10,000 20,000 views. I look the next day 10,000 20,000 views. I look the next day and this joke tweet has a million and a and this joke tweet has a million and a and this joke tweet has a million and a half views. It's like something's going half views. It's like something's going half views. It's like something's going on. It was an indefensible act. There on. It was an indefensible act. There on. It was an indefensible act. There was no reason for me to do it. But I'm was no reason for me to do it. But I'm was no reason for me to do it. But I'm feeling this energy coming at me from feeling this energy coming at me from feeling this energy coming at me from all of these different directions. all of these different directions. all of these different directions. I participate. I I answer the I participate. I I answer the I participate. I I answer the invitation. invitation. invitation. Comes back. there's interest said hm Comes back. there's interest said hm Comes back. there's interest said hm what would be the next step and the next what would be the next step and the next what would be the next step and the next step is well I still don't really know step is well I still don't really know step is well I still don't really know what vibe coding is maybe I'll write a what vibe coding is maybe I'll write a what vibe coding is maybe I'll write a book about vibe coding I put aside all book about vibe coding I put aside all book about vibe coding I put aside all of my real work my professional work of my real work my professional work of my real work my professional work to dedicate myself to this book on vibe to dedicate myself to this book on vibe to dedicate myself to this book on vibe coding coding coding and again I couldn't explain it I and again I couldn't explain it I and again I couldn't explain it I couldn't tell you why I can't say it was couldn't tell you why I can't say it was couldn't tell you why I can't say it was a good idea none of those things I was a good idea none of those things I was a good idea none of those things I was following a calling following a calling following a calling feeling like I was being invited to feeling like I was being invited to feeling like I was being invited to participate in this thing and this is participate in this thing and this is participate in this thing and this is the way that I could answer the call. So the way that I could answer the call. So the way that I could answer the call. So I did.

I did. I did. >> In so many parts of our life, we might >> In so many parts of our life, we might >> In so many parts of our life, we might get that invitation to participate in get that invitation to participate in get that invitation to participate in something that is none of our business. something that is none of our business. something that is none of our business. >> Yes. All the time. >> Yes. All the time. >> Yes. All the time. >> Yeah. And we and we usually say no >> Yeah. And we and we usually say no >> Yeah. And we and we usually say no because it's not what's on our business because it's not what's on our business because it's not what's on our business card. It's not what we've done in the card. It's not what we've done in the card. It's not what we've done in the past. And we are, you know, the more past. And we are, you know, the more past. And we are, you know, the more successful we become, the more narrow we successful we become, the more narrow we successful we become, the more narrow we become in many respects. become in many respects. become in many respects. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. I'm thinking about this idea of like how I'm thinking about this idea of like how I'm thinking about this idea of like how one resists their label so they can one resists their label so they can one resists their label so they can capitalize on all the callings or you capitalize on all the callings or you capitalize on all the callings or you know the so they don't miss know the so they don't miss know the so they don't miss >> yeah important >> yeah important >> yeah important >> any label that you put on yourself or >> any label that you put on yourself or >> any label that you put on yourself or that's put on you makes you smaller no that's put on you makes you smaller no that's put on you makes you smaller no label supply label supply label supply no label supply we are beyond labels no label supply we are beyond labels no label supply we are beyond labels >> it's tempting though isn't it because >> it's tempting though isn't it because >> it's tempting though isn't it because labels are nice shortcuts at cocktail labels are nice shortcuts at cocktail labels are nice shortcuts at cocktail parties parties parties >> there are also no shortcuts [laughter] >> there are also no shortcuts [laughter] >> there are also no shortcuts [laughter] and I hope you don't spend too and and I hope you don't spend too and and I hope you don't spend too and shaming cocktail parties. shaming cocktail parties. shaming cocktail parties. >> No, I don't. Don't worry. I'm guessing >> No, I don't. Don't worry. I'm guessing >> No, I don't. Don't worry. I'm guessing what goes on there. what goes on there. what goes on there. >> Okay. So, that's interesting. This idea >> Okay. So, that's interesting. This idea >> Okay. So, that's interesting. This idea of sometimes following the indefensible. of sometimes following the indefensible. of sometimes following the indefensible. >> Well, if you feel a call, even if it >> Well, if you feel a call, even if it >> Well, if you feel a call, even if it doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense, if you uh for for an artist to write a if you uh for for an artist to write a if you uh for for an artist to write a song song song and you really feel like this is really and you really feel like this is really and you really feel like this is really this is some this is really meaningful this is some this is really meaningful this is some this is really meaningful to me. I think no one's going to like to me. I think no one's going to like to me. I think no one's going to like it, but I really feel it. I can't defend it, but I really feel it. I can't defend it, but I really feel it. I can't defend it. That's the best thing you can do. If it. That's the best thing you can do. If it. That's the best thing you can do. If you make something where you think this you make something where you think this you make something where you think this is for everyone or they're going to love is for everyone or they're going to love is for everyone or they're going to love it, it, it, it's like uh it's too easy. The most it's like uh it's too easy. The most it's like uh it's too easy. The most interesting things are challenging. It's

interesting things are challenging. It's interesting things are challenging. It's challenging to you. It's challenging to challenging to you. It's challenging to challenging to you. It's challenging to the people who see it. The things that the people who see it. The things that the people who see it. The things that are revolutionary. I most of the things are revolutionary. I most of the things are revolutionary. I most of the things that I've fallen in love with over my that I've fallen in love with over my that I've fallen in love with over my life creatively art when I first see it life creatively art when I first see it life creatively art when I first see it often or first hear it I might not like often or first hear it I might not like often or first hear it I might not like it at first because it's it's too much it at first because it's it's too much it at first because it's it's too much or I don't have any context for it. The or I don't have any context for it. The or I don't have any context for it. The true revolutionary works we don't have true revolutionary works we don't have true revolutionary works we don't have context for. It appears to me Rick that context for. It appears to me Rick that context for. It appears to me Rick that sometimes things that are more of the sometimes things that are more of the sometimes things that are more of the same do bigger numbers. So I've been same do bigger numbers. So I've been same do bigger numbers. So I've been thinking about maybe for a period of thinking about maybe for a period of thinking about maybe for a period of time I was thinking about two artists. time I was thinking about two artists. time I was thinking about two artists. One of them is One of them is One of them is Drake who listened makes great music Drake who listened makes great music Drake who listened makes great music makes hits everybody loves them. They makes hits everybody loves them. They makes hits everybody loves them. They come out we dance in the clubs to them come out we dance in the clubs to them come out we dance in the clubs to them etc. Then I was thinking about I think a etc. Then I was thinking about I think a etc. Then I was thinking about I think a record that you worked on with Kanye record that you worked on with Kanye record that you worked on with Kanye Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I remember where I was when I first >> And I remember where I was when I first >> And I remember where I was when I first heard that as a huge Kanye fan. I heard that as a huge Kanye fan. I heard that as a huge Kanye fan. I thought here we go. I'm going to get thought here we go. I'm going to get thought here we go. I'm going to get more college dropout. Here we go. And I more college dropout. Here we go. And I more college dropout. Here we go. And I put it on and I was like what the put it on and I was like what the put it on and I was like what the is this? is this? is this? >> But then I loved it. And in my little >> But then I loved it. And in my little >> But then I loved it. And in my little group of six, group of six, group of six, >> how long did it take? A while.

>> how long did it take? A while. >> how long did it take? A while. >> A while. >> A while. >> A while. >> It took a while. I mean, you know, with >> It took a while. I mean, you know, with >> It took a while. I mean, you know, with Jake stuff, I I tend to like it on first Jake stuff, I I tend to like it on first Jake stuff, I I tend to like it on first listen, listen, listen, >> but with that Jesus album, >> but with that Jesus album, >> but with that Jesus album, >> I had to really like persevere and then >> I had to really like persevere and then >> I had to really like persevere and then I thought it was was genius because it I thought it was was genius because it I thought it was was genius because it was a new paradigm. was a new paradigm. was a new paradigm. >> Um, you worked on that album. >> Um, you worked on that album. >> Um, you worked on that album. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that that's a good example of like And that that's a good example of like And that that's a good example of like it was a sort of an anti-hip hop album it was a sort of an anti-hip hop album it was a sort of an anti-hip hop album and that was done intentionally and it and that was done intentionally and it and that was done intentionally and it definitely we went as far as we could definitely we went as far as we could definitely we went as far as we could into uh into uh into uh into an indefensible realm. into an indefensible realm. into an indefensible realm. >> But what about the numbers? What about >> But what about the numbers? What about >> But what about the numbers? What about the sales? What about the record label? the sales? What about the record label? the sales? What about the record label? >> Do is it an important album to you now? >> Do is it an important album to you now? >> Do is it an important album to you now? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Did its job. >> Okay. Did its job. >> Okay. Did its job. those near-term incentives though. those near-term incentives though. those near-term incentives though. Listen, we need Drake. We need you to Listen, we need Drake. We need you to Listen, we need Drake. We need you to make another. make another. make another. >> We never consider near-term incentive >> We never consider near-term incentive >> We never consider near-term incentive ever at any point in time. Never once. ever at any point in time. Never once. ever at any point in time. Never once. Never a consideration. Never a consideration. Never a consideration. It doesn't exist.

It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. We're making things We're making things We're making things forever. forever. forever. We're making things that are truly We're making things that are truly We're making things that are truly personal to us. And if it's truly personal to us. And if it's truly personal to us. And if it's truly personal to us, if someone doesn't get personal to us, if someone doesn't get personal to us, if someone doesn't get it, it, it, that's they just don't get it yet. Or that's they just don't get it yet. Or that's they just don't get it yet. Or maybe they'll never get it. And it's maybe they'll never get it. And it's maybe they'll never get it. And it's fine because I know this is my diary fine because I know this is my diary fine because I know this is my diary entry. Can someone else read your diary entry. Can someone else read your diary entry. Can someone else read your diary entry and tell you it's wrong, it's not entry and tell you it's wrong, it's not entry and tell you it's wrong, it's not good enough, or it's not true. It's not good enough, or it's not true. It's not good enough, or it's not true. It's not how you see the world. Everything we how you see the world. Everything we how you see the world. Everything we make is a diary entry. Everything we make is a diary entry. Everything we make is a diary entry. Everything we make is our personal make is our personal make is our personal true expression. The reason we're saying true expression. The reason we're saying true expression. The reason we're saying it is to show you see it like that. We it is to show you see it like that. We it is to show you see it like that. We see it like this or I see it like this. see it like this or I see it like this. see it like this or I see it like this. This is how I see it. And with that This is how I see it. And with that This is how I see it. And with that information, you can see it's like, ah, information, you can see it's like, ah, information, you can see it's like, ah, I never considered that before. There's I never considered that before. There's I never considered that before. There's more. The world is bigger than I more. The world is bigger than I more. The world is bigger than I thought. thought. thought. It's not just more the same. It's not It's not just more the same. It's not It's not just more the same. It's not just just just more numbers. And it's also the the more more numbers. And it's also the the more more numbers. And it's also the the more numbers game is a shorter term game. I numbers game is a shorter term game. I numbers game is a shorter term game. I remember I made an album with Lincoln remember I made an album with Lincoln remember I made an album with Lincoln Park who at the time Park who at the time Park who at the time were probably one of the biggest bands were probably one of the biggest bands were probably one of the biggest bands in the world and they had made three in the world and they had made three in the world and they had made three albums that were I would say albums that were I would say albums that were I would say stylistically very similar. They were stylistically very similar. They were stylistically very similar. They were rap rock and they were there was this rap rock and they were there was this rap rock and they were there was this there was a rap rock movement. corn, I there was a rap rock movement. corn, I there was a rap rock movement. corn, I guess. Rage Against the Machine was

guess. Rage Against the Machine was guess. Rage Against the Machine was first, K, Limp Biscuit, all these bands. first, K, Limp Biscuit, all these bands. first, K, Limp Biscuit, all these bands. And Lincoln Park was probably the last And Lincoln Park was probably the last And Lincoln Park was probably the last of that wave of music. And they were of that wave of music. And they were of that wave of music. And they were wildly successful doing that music. And wildly successful doing that music. And wildly successful doing that music. And when we started working together, there when we started working together, there when we started working together, there was a choice. We could continue and do was a choice. We could continue and do was a choice. We could continue and do the next in that same style which the the next in that same style which the the next in that same style which the audience would love and it would be easy audience would love and it would be easy audience would love and it would be easy to do or we could be true to where the to do or we could be true to where the to do or we could be true to where the band was in this moment of time 10 years band was in this moment of time 10 years band was in this moment of time 10 years after they started about probably 8 10 after they started about probably 8 10 after they started about probably 8 10 years after they started and be free to years after they started and be free to years after they started and be free to find the new sound the next sound. And find the new sound the next sound. And find the new sound the next sound. And when we did that, probably half of the when we did that, probably half of the when we did that, probably half of the audience didn't like it and half of the audience didn't like it and half of the audience didn't like it and half of the audience loved it and new people came audience loved it and new people came audience loved it and new people came along and they set themselves up along and they set themselves up along and they set themselves up to have a much longer career of making to have a much longer career of making to have a much longer career of making the things that they wanted to make. the things that they wanted to make. the things that they wanted to make. Whereas they were already on the tail Whereas they were already on the tail Whereas they were already on the tail end of a genre that had they made end of a genre that had they made end of a genre that had they made another one, maybe it would have been it another one, maybe it would have been it another one, maybe it would have been it probably would have been, you know, as probably would have been, you know, as probably would have been, you know, as successful as what they had done. But successful as what they had done. But successful as what they had done. But long-term the genre was dying.

long-term the genre was dying. long-term the genre was dying. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Again, none of this was thought about at >> Again, none of this was thought about at >> Again, none of this was thought about at the time. Another example I think of is the time. Another example I think of is the time. Another example I think of is um Radio Heads Kid A. I remember when um Radio Heads Kid A. I remember when um Radio Heads Kid A. I remember when Kid A came out, I didn't like it at all. Kid A came out, I didn't like it at all. Kid A came out, I didn't like it at all. I loved the Benz and Okay Computer. They I loved the Benz and Okay Computer. They I loved the Benz and Okay Computer. They were my favorite band. And then they were my favorite band. And then they were my favorite band. And then they made this album Kid A. And it was made this album Kid A. And it was made this album Kid A. And it was totally different and it really totally different and it really totally different and it really alienated me. And today that might be my alienated me. And today that might be my alienated me. And today that might be my favorite Radio Head album. It feels like favorite Radio Head album. It feels like favorite Radio Head album. It feels like a risk. Yes. But that's all of the best a risk. Yes. But that's all of the best a risk. Yes. But that's all of the best things involve risk things involve risk things involve risk >> because I'm sure you've also got >> because I'm sure you've also got >> because I'm sure you've also got examples where someone followed that examples where someone followed that examples where someone followed that thesis of listening to what they wanted thesis of listening to what they wanted thesis of listening to what they wanted to make or doing it for themselves and to make or doing it for themselves and to make or doing it for themselves and not thinking too much about the audience not thinking too much about the audience not thinking too much about the audience and [clears throat] it didn't work. and [clears throat] it didn't work. and [clears throat] it didn't work. >> Of course, >> Of course, >> Of course, >> and they could have just made, you know, >> and they could have just made, you know, >> and they could have just made, you know, a hit and paid off their mortgage and a hit and paid off their mortgage and a hit and paid off their mortgage and >> yeah, it's not so interesting. I know >> yeah, it's not so interesting. I know >> yeah, it's not so interesting. I know it's not so interesting to me. I think it's not so interesting to me. I think it's not so interesting to me. I think that's it's a different game. That's that's it's a different game. That's that's it's a different game. That's the, you know, that's the investment the, you know, that's the investment the, you know, that's the investment commerce game and I'm in the art game. commerce game and I'm in the art game. commerce game and I'm in the art game. It's just a different thing. There's It's just a different thing. There's It's just a different thing. There's nothing wrong with that other game. It's nothing wrong with that other game. It's nothing wrong with that other game. It's just not my game. just not my game. just not my game. >> Which one leads to more success over the >> Which one leads to more success over the >> Which one leads to more success over the long term? Defined by, let's say, if we long term? Defined by, let's say, if we long term? Defined by, let's say, if we define success in this context, by the define success in this context, by the define success in this context, by the subjective opinion of people that that subjective opinion of people that that subjective opinion of people that that was good and money.

was good and money. was good and money. >> All I can say is that I've been making >> All I can say is that I've been making >> All I can say is that I've been making things for 40 years. I have never done things for 40 years. I have never done things for 40 years. I have never done it the way you're suggesting. I have it the way you're suggesting. I have it the way you're suggesting. I have always taken the risk. I've always made always taken the risk. I've always made always taken the risk. I've always made my favorite thing. I've always supported my favorite thing. I've always supported my favorite thing. I've always supported the artists in making their favorite the artists in making their favorite the artists in making their favorite thing and luckily a lot of revolutionary thing and luckily a lot of revolutionary thing and luckily a lot of revolutionary things have happened from that and I things have happened from that and I things have happened from that and I would say things that would say things that would say things that probably inspired other artists to be probably inspired other artists to be probably inspired other artists to be more free and more true and more honest more free and more true and more honest more free and more true and more honest and take bigger risks to make something and take bigger risks to make something and take bigger risks to make something more interesting made the world more more interesting made the world more more interesting made the world more interesting place. interesting place. interesting place. >> Why do you think these people call you? >> Why do you think these people call you? >> Why do you think these people call you? I think it's probably different for I think it's probably different for I think it's probably different for different artists. different artists. different artists. >> Why did Jay-Z call you? >> Why did Jay-Z call you? >> Why did Jay-Z call you? >> The time that I first met Jay was when >> The time that I first met Jay was when >> The time that I first met Jay was when he was making the Black Album and he he was making the Black Album and he he was making the Black Album and he wanted to wanted to wanted to he was planning on retiring and this was he was planning on retiring and this was he was planning on retiring and this was going to be his swan song. His final going to be his swan song. His final going to be his swan song. His final album. The Black Album was the Jay-Z's album. The Black Album was the Jay-Z's album. The Black Album was the Jay-Z's last album. Turned out not to be, but last album. Turned out not to be, but last album. Turned out not to be, but that was the plan. And he asked his 10 that was the plan. And he asked his 10 that was the plan. And he asked his 10 favorite producers to each make one favorite producers to each make one favorite producers to each make one track with them. And ours was called 99 track with them. And ours was called 99 track with them. And ours was called 99 Problems. And it was a really fun Problems. And it was a really fun Problems. And it was a really fun experience to make.

experience to make. experience to make. >> I mean, what an iconic record that is. >> I mean, what an iconic record that is. >> I mean, what an iconic record that is. What was your contribution to that What was your contribution to that What was your contribution to that record? Everybody knows that record. record? Everybody knows that record. record? Everybody knows that record. >> Everybody. >> Everybody. >> Everybody. >> Yeah. We created the track and we played >> Yeah. We created the track and we played >> Yeah. We created the track and we played it for Jay and he liked it and then he it for Jay and he liked it and then he it for Jay and he liked it and then he wrote the words and wrapped on top of wrote the words and wrapped on top of wrote the words and wrapped on top of it. it. it. >> So you you produced the music. >> So you you produced the music. >> So you you produced the music. >> Made the music. I read that you gave him >> Made the music. I read that you gave him >> Made the music. I read that you gave him direction in terms of the lyrics as direction in terms of the lyrics as direction in terms of the lyrics as well. When my friend Chris Rock had the well. When my friend Chris Rock had the well. When my friend Chris Rock had the idea of um idea of um idea of um Ice Tea had a song called 99 Problems Ice Tea had a song called 99 Problems Ice Tea had a song called 99 Problems that was the opposite. It was that was the opposite. It was that was the opposite. It was I have 99 problems and a ain't one I have 99 problems and a ain't one I have 99 problems and a ain't one and then it's a story about the girls. and then it's a story about the girls. and then it's a story about the girls. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And Chris said, you know, 99 problems >> And Chris said, you know, 99 problems >> And Chris said, you know, 99 problems would be a great hook and it doesn't would be a great hook and it doesn't would be a great hook and it doesn't have to be about the girls. And then I have to be about the girls. And then I have to be about the girls. And then I suggested to Jay, make it about the suggested to Jay, make it about the suggested to Jay, make it about the problems. And then that's what it was. problems. And then that's what it was. problems. And then that's what it was. and business people, startups, they seek and business people, startups, they seek and business people, startups, they seek your advice as well. Entrepreneurs your advice as well. Entrepreneurs your advice as well. Entrepreneurs >> all the time. >> all the time. >> all the time. >> And what are they seeking? >> And what are they seeking? >> And what are they seeking? >> Let's talk about 99 problems a little >> Let's talk about 99 problems a little >> Let's talk about 99 problems a little more because it's an interesting story. more because it's an interesting story. more because it's an interesting story. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Sure. >> Jay-Z was signed to Def Jam Records. Def >> Jay-Z was signed to Def Jam Records. Def >> Jay-Z was signed to Def Jam Records. Def Jam Records was the label that I founded Jam Records was the label that I founded Jam Records was the label that I founded >> and I was no longer at Def Jam when we >> and I was no longer at Def Jam when we >> and I was no longer at Def Jam when we made 99 problems. And I remember giving made 99 problems. And I remember giving made 99 problems. And I remember giving it to the people at Def Jam and the it to the people at Def Jam and the it to the people at Def Jam and the person who was the president of Def Jam person who was the president of Def Jam person who was the president of Def Jam at the time listened to and he's like, at the time listened to and he's like, at the time listened to and he's like, "Oh, this is great. It'll never be a "Oh, this is great. It'll never be a "Oh, this is great. It'll never be a single, but it'll be a great album single, but it'll be a great album single, but it'll be a great album track." I remember thinking, okay, and track." I remember thinking, okay, and track." I remember thinking, okay, and again, I don't I don't know. I I I again, I don't I don't know. I I I again, I don't I don't know. I I I couldn't say, but couldn't say, but couldn't say, but the president of the label that I the president of the label that I the president of the label that I founded was saying this could never be a founded was saying this could never be a founded was saying this could never be a single because it doesn't sound like single because it doesn't sound like single because it doesn't sound like everything else on the radio. everything else on the radio. everything else on the radio. That was the old way of thinking. That That was the old way of thinking. That That was the old way of thinking. That was the normal way of thinking of like was the normal way of thinking of like was the normal way of thinking of like you make things to go on the radio that you make things to go on the radio that you make things to go on the radio that sound like everything else on the radio. sound like everything else on the radio. sound like everything else on the radio. But if you do that, But if you do that, But if you do that, who cares? who cares? who cares? It's just more the same. So 99 Problems It's just more the same. So 99 Problems It's just more the same. So 99 Problems didn't sound like anything on the radio. didn't sound like anything on the radio. didn't sound like anything on the radio. So when it eventually got on the radio, So when it eventually got on the radio, So when it eventually got on the radio, it had a big impact. Another band I work it had a big impact. Another band I work it had a big impact. Another band I work with is called System of a Down. with is called System of a Down. with is called System of a Down. >> Yeah, I remember. >> Yeah, I remember. >> Yeah, I remember. >> And I remember bringing their record to >> And I remember bringing their record to >> And I remember bringing their record to Kevin Weatherly at KRock, which is the Kevin Weatherly at KRock, which is the Kevin Weatherly at KRock, which is the rock station, alternative rock station rock station, alternative rock station rock station, alternative rock station in California. And if they play it, all in California. And if they play it, all in California. And if they play it, all of the other alternative rock stations of the other alternative rock stations of the other alternative rock stations in the country play it. They were like in the country play it. They were like in the country play it. They were like the leading station. And they this was a the leading station. And they this was a the leading station. And they this was a California band that was starting to get California band that was starting to get California band that was starting to get popular in the clubs. Maybe 200 people popular in the clubs. Maybe 200 people popular in the clubs. Maybe 200 people would come, but in a club, the club would come, but in a club, the club would come, but in a club, the club would sell out. Good sign. And I brought would sell out. Good sign. And I brought would sell out. Good sign. And I brought I think the song was called Sugar. And I I think the song was called Sugar. And I I think the song was called Sugar. And I brought it to Kevin Weatherly and I brought it to Kevin Weatherly and I brought it to Kevin Weatherly and I played it for him and he said, "Not only played it for him and he said, "Not only played it for him and he said, "Not only will we not play this record, we will

will we not play this record, we will will we not play this record, we will never play this band on our station never play this band on our station never play this band on our station because it sounded insane. It didn't because it sounded insane. It didn't because it sounded insane. It didn't sound like anything else on the sound like anything else on the sound like anything else on the station." One year later, number one station." One year later, number one station." One year later, number one song on the station, most requested, song on the station, most requested, song on the station, most requested, and two weeks ago, I saw System of a and two weeks ago, I saw System of a and two weeks ago, I saw System of a Down sell out 80,000 seats in a stadium Down sell out 80,000 seats in a stadium Down sell out 80,000 seats in a stadium in Paris. They sold it out two nights in in Paris. They sold it out two nights in in Paris. They sold it out two nights in a row. a row. a row. I can't tell you how or why this this I can't tell you how or why this this I can't tell you how or why this this works. I can't tell you that there's works. I can't tell you that there's works. I can't tell you that there's anything to follow, but I will say we anything to follow, but I will say we anything to follow, but I will say we made the things that we loved. made the things that we loved. made the things that we loved. We never questioned if anyone else was We never questioned if anyone else was We never questioned if anyone else was going to like it. We never questioned going to like it. We never questioned going to like it. We never questioned what the audience was going to think. We what the audience was going to think. We what the audience was going to think. We never questioned where does it fit in never questioned where does it fit in never questioned where does it fit in the market. None of the none of those the market. None of the none of those the market. None of the none of those normal conversations. normal conversations. normal conversations. We made our favorite thing. We took it We made our favorite thing. We took it We made our favorite thing. We took it to an indefensible level as far as we to an indefensible level as far as we to an indefensible level as far as we could go and luckily could go and luckily could go and luckily it worked out. it worked out. it worked out. >> Is there a way to get clearer on what >> Is there a way to get clearer on what >> Is there a way to get clearer on what you love? This sounds like a strange you love? This sounds like a strange you love? This sounds like a strange question, but um question, but um question, but um >> meditate.

>> meditate. >> meditate. >> Meditate. I learned to meditate when I >> Meditate. I learned to meditate when I >> Meditate. I learned to meditate when I was 14. And was 14. And was 14. And I think having a TM I think having a TM I think having a TM as a grounding element in my life, as a grounding element in my life, as a grounding element in my life, >> TM, >> TM, >> TM, >> a transcendental meditation. That was >> a transcendental meditation. That was >> a transcendental meditation. That was the first type of meditation I learned the first type of meditation I learned the first type of meditation I learned when I was 14. when I was 14. when I was 14. It it it changed me. I know this because It it it changed me. I know this because It it it changed me. I know this because I stopped meditating when I went to I stopped meditating when I went to I stopped meditating when I went to college. And then when I moved to college. And then when I moved to college. And then when I moved to California, right after college, I California, right after college, I California, right after college, I started meditating again. Somewhere I started meditating again. Somewhere I started meditating again. Somewhere I knew it was a big decision and somewhere knew it was a big decision and somewhere knew it was a big decision and somewhere I knew there would be a right moment to I knew there would be a right moment to I knew there would be a right moment to start. And it took several months before start. And it took several months before start. And it took several months before I actually sat for the first meditation I actually sat for the first meditation I actually sat for the first meditation after not doing it for several years. after not doing it for several years. after not doing it for several years. And in that first meditation, I And in that first meditation, I And in that first meditation, I realized, oh, this is this is very realized, oh, this is this is very realized, oh, this is this is very familiar to me. familiar to me. familiar to me. This is a big part of who I am, even This is a big part of who I am, even This is a big part of who I am, even though I haven't done it in 5 years. though I haven't done it in 5 years. though I haven't done it in 5 years. It's a big part of how I see the world. It's a big part of how I see the world. It's a big part of how I see the world. The fact that I got to do that from a The fact that I got to do that from a The fact that I got to do that from a young age young age young age >> to understand who you are with it, I'm >> to understand who you are with it, I'm >> to understand who you are with it, I'm going to ask you who you would be going to ask you who you would be going to ask you who you would be without it.

without it. without it. >> I don't know. It it'd be I'm curious. >> I don't know. It it'd be I'm curious. >> I don't know. It it'd be I'm curious. I'm happy that I don't know because I I'm happy that I don't know because I I'm happy that I don't know because I like having the practice. But whether I like having the practice. But whether I like having the practice. But whether I continue a practice or not, I've done continue a practice or not, I've done continue a practice or not, I've done enough of it over the course of my life enough of it over the course of my life enough of it over the course of my life that that that I'm there. I'm when I meditate I'm there. I'm when I meditate I'm there. I'm when I meditate [clears throat] more, it gets deeper. [clears throat] more, it gets deeper. [clears throat] more, it gets deeper. But even if I don't meditate, it's like But even if I don't meditate, it's like But even if I don't meditate, it's like um Maharishi teacher of transcendental um Maharishi teacher of transcendental um Maharishi teacher of transcendental meditation Maharishi Mahesy Yogi says meditation Maharishi Mahesy Yogi says meditation Maharishi Mahesy Yogi says every time you meditate it's like making every time you meditate it's like making every time you meditate it's like making a deposit in the bank. So it builds up a deposit in the bank. So it builds up a deposit in the bank. So it builds up and again that was rhetoric before but and again that was rhetoric before but and again that was rhetoric before but in my experience I got to see oh it's in my experience I got to see oh it's in my experience I got to see oh it's not rhetoric like I I actually had this not rhetoric like I I actually had this not rhetoric like I I actually had this experience experience experience and it changed the way I saw the world and it changed the way I saw the world and it changed the way I saw the world and and I'll say you see beyond the and and I'll say you see beyond the and and I'll say you see beyond the surface. surface. surface. You can see the depth underneath. And You can see the depth underneath. And You can see the depth underneath. And for me the things on the surface are not for me the things on the surface are not for me the things on the surface are not so interesting.

so interesting. so interesting. I'm interested in the depth the the the I'm interested in the depth the the the I'm interested in the depth the the the depth behind it. depth behind it. depth behind it. >> So my first question would be what is >> So my first question would be what is >> So my first question would be what is transcendental meditation? transcendental meditation? transcendental meditation? >> It's a mantra practice that's done >> It's a mantra practice that's done >> It's a mantra practice that's done silently. silently. silently. You do it sitting with your eyes closed. You do it sitting with your eyes closed. You do it sitting with your eyes closed. You learn it from a TM teacher. I can't You learn it from a TM teacher. I can't You learn it from a TM teacher. I can't teach it to you. teach it to you. teach it to you. >> We close our eyes and then the mantra is >> We close our eyes and then the mantra is >> We close our eyes and then the mantra is a sound vibration a sound vibration a sound vibration that gets given to you. I was given mine that gets given to you. I was given mine that gets given to you. I was given mine at when I was 14. I have never uttered at when I was 14. I have never uttered at when I was 14. I have never uttered it out loud since that time. I've never it out loud since that time. I've never it out loud since that time. I've never shared it with anyone. And that's part shared it with anyone. And that's part shared it with anyone. And that's part of the training. It It's like a a of the training. It It's like a a of the training. It It's like a a private sound private sound private sound and you engage with this sound in the and you engage with this sound in the and you engage with this sound in the way that you're taught. way that you're taught. way that you're taught. 20 minutes 20 minutes 20 minutes at least once a day, typically twice a at least once a day, typically twice a at least once a day, typically twice a day. I would do it right when I woke up day. I would do it right when I woke up day. I would do it right when I woke up in the morning and then again before in the morning and then again before in the morning and then again before dinner. Those would be the two the two dinner. Those would be the two the two dinner. Those would be the two the two windows. I when I lived in California windows. I when I lived in California windows. I when I lived in California and I was working in different recording and I was working in different recording and I was working in different recording studios, I meditated with Tom Petty and studios, I meditated with Tom Petty and studios, I meditated with Tom Petty and Johnny Cash and different artists before Johnny Cash and different artists before Johnny Cash and different artists before sessions that would be part of our sessions that would be part of our sessions that would be part of our practice. Red Hot Chili Peppers. We practice. Red Hot Chili Peppers. We practice. Red Hot Chili Peppers. We would sit and meditate together before would sit and meditate together before would sit and meditate together before sessions. So, I've had this experience sessions. So, I've had this experience sessions. So, I've had this experience for a while in my life and it's uh it's for a while in my life and it's uh it's for a while in my life and it's uh it's probably the most profound thing I can probably the most profound thing I can probably the most profound thing I can mention. We we'll get to others, but mention. We we'll get to others, but mention. We we'll get to others, but that that that's one that's a learnable, that that that's one that's a learnable, that that that's one that's a learnable, practicable action that really changed practicable action that really changed practicable action that really changed who I am.

who I am. who I am. >> How did you know it was >> How did you know it was >> How did you know it was efficacious? How did you know it was efficacious? How did you know it was efficacious? How did you know it was working? What is the measure that this working? What is the measure that this working? What is the measure that this practice is worth that investment in practice is worth that investment in practice is worth that investment in time time time in your view? in your view? in your view? >> The only proof that I had was getting >> The only proof that I had was getting >> The only proof that I had was getting away from it and coming back to it. That away from it and coming back to it. That away from it and coming back to it. That was I I recognized it in that first was I I recognized it in that first was I I recognized it in that first meditation back meditation back meditation back how deep and connected I was to this how deep and connected I was to this how deep and connected I was to this thing. thing. thing. >> And I'm guessing this unlocks, you said >> And I'm guessing this unlocks, you said >> And I'm guessing this unlocks, you said a deeper level, a deeper level of a deeper level, a deeper level of a deeper level, a deeper level of creativity and ideas, creativity and ideas, creativity and ideas, >> everything. >> everything. >> everything. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> everything, >> everything, >> everything, deeper understanding. deeper understanding. deeper understanding. >> People often hear that meditation in >> People often hear that meditation in >> People often hear that meditation in various forms is beneficial. very various forms is beneficial. very various forms is beneficial. very successful people sit here all the time successful people sit here all the time successful people sit here all the time and say it's so it's so central to why and say it's so it's so central to why and say it's so it's so central to why I've been able to do what I've done. And I've been able to do what I've done. And I've been able to do what I've done. And then there'll be people, you know, that then there'll be people, you know, that then there'll be people, you know, that think, well, I sitting there for 10 think, well, I sitting there for 10 think, well, I sitting there for 10 minutes. My brain is very, very busy. minutes. My brain is very, very busy. minutes. My brain is very, very busy. I've tried it once, it didn't really I've tried it once, it didn't really I've tried it once, it didn't really work. And then they move on. And then I work. And then they move on. And then I work. And then they move on. And then I study some of the great some of the study some of the great some of the study some of the great some of the great creatives in the world, the great great creatives in the world, the great great creatives in the world, the great visionaries, people that I thought could visionaries, people that I thought could visionaries, people that I thought could see round corners in an atypical way, see round corners in an atypical way, see round corners in an atypical way, like Steve Jobs. And there's always a like Steve Jobs. And there's always a like Steve Jobs. And there's always a practice, a meditation practice, well, practice, a meditation practice, well, practice, a meditation practice, well, so often at the very heart of of their so often at the very heart of of their so often at the very heart of of their brilliance. So I've I don't currently brilliance. So I've I don't currently brilliance. So I've I don't currently have a meditation practice. My wonderful have a meditation practice. My wonderful have a meditation practice. My wonderful fiance does. She does it every morning fiance does. She does it every morning fiance does. She does it every morning for 20 minutes. She's a breath work for 20 minutes. She's a breath work for 20 minutes. She's a breath work practitioner. So I mean it's her whole practitioner. So I mean it's her whole practitioner. So I mean it's her whole world. And tell me what she says about world. And tell me what she says about world. And tell me what she says about it.

it. it. >> She says it unlocks a deeper level of um >> She says it unlocks a deeper level of um >> She says it unlocks a deeper level of um calm. And I don't mean calm as in like calm. And I don't mean calm as in like calm. And I don't mean calm as in like stress. I mean a deeper level of like stress. I mean a deeper level of like stress. I mean a deeper level of like groundedness. groundedness. groundedness. And she says And she says And she says she feels more connected. she feels more connected. she feels more connected. Now in her context I think that's more Now in her context I think that's more Now in her context I think that's more of like a spiritual thing. She feels of like a spiritual thing. She feels of like a spiritual thing. She feels more connected to the universe and and more connected to the universe and and more connected to the universe and and others. others. others. >> As far as the creative >> As far as the creative >> As far as the creative experience goes, a spiritual connection experience goes, a spiritual connection experience goes, a spiritual connection is a big part of that. It's just the is a big part of that. It's just the is a big part of that. It's just the nature of nature of nature of >> it's the nature of how it works. It's >> it's the nature of how it works. It's >> it's the nature of how it works. It's not an intellectual process. It's a not an intellectual process. It's a not an intellectual process. It's a spiritual process. spiritual process. spiritual process. >> What is the mechanism >> What is the mechanism >> What is the mechanism that is causing these results that you that is causing these results that you that is causing these results that you see? What from a biological perspective? see? What from a biological perspective? see? What from a biological perspective? I I couldn't answer that in the way that I I couldn't answer that in the way that I I couldn't answer that in the way that you would hope, but I will say I think you would hope, but I will say I think you would hope, but I will say I think it it allows you to let go of all of the it it allows you to let go of all of the it it allows you to let go of all of the ordinary concerns. ordinary concerns. ordinary concerns. I I also have a question which is if you I I also have a question which is if you I I also have a question which is if you live with a person who says this live with a person who says this live with a person who says this practice is so impactful on her life.

practice is so impactful on her life. practice is so impactful on her life. I'm questioning why you at least haven't I'm questioning why you at least haven't I'm questioning why you at least haven't tried it with her for a month to see how tried it with her for a month to see how tried it with her for a month to see how >> good question. >> good question. >> good question. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> No, it's a good question. >> No, it's a good question. >> No, it's a good question. >> I have no good answer for it. >> I have no good answer for it. >> I have no good answer for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's what it >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's what it >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's what it has to do with it's you're not looking has to do with it's you're not looking has to do with it's you're not looking for cues from the outside. You're for cues from the outside. You're for cues from the outside. You're looking for cues on the inside. What looking for cues on the inside. What looking for cues on the inside. What lights you up? What are you excited to lights you up? What are you excited to lights you up? What are you excited to play for your friend? Not what are you play for your friend? Not what are you play for your friend? Not what are you excited to play for your friend of like excited to play for your friend of like excited to play for your friend of like what do you think this will do? what do you think this will do? what do you think this will do? You're playing for your friend like wow You're playing for your friend like wow You're playing for your friend like wow can you believe something like this can you believe something like this can you believe something like this exists in the world? How cool is that? exists in the world? How cool is that? exists in the world? How cool is that? The distinction that I'm trying to make The distinction that I'm trying to make The distinction that I'm trying to make is often if you read business books or is often if you read business books or is often if you read business books or entrepreneurship books when they're entrepreneurship books when they're entrepreneurship books when they're talking about innovation when they're talking about innovation when they're talking about innovation when they're talking about the great companies like talking about the great companies like talking about the great companies like Amazon or I heard Sebastian who's the Amazon or I heard Sebastian who's the Amazon or I heard Sebastian who's the CEO of Clara say it the other day who's CEO of Clara say it the other day who's CEO of Clara say it the other day who's a tech founder they spend a lot of time a tech founder they spend a lot of time a tech founder they spend a lot of time thinking about the customer the thinking about the customer the thinking about the customer the customer's problem and they work customer's problem and they work customer's problem and they work backwards they call it to the answer. So backwards they call it to the answer. So backwards they call it to the answer. So they'll zoom in on Rick's world and say they'll zoom in on Rick's world and say they'll zoom in on Rick's world and say Rick has these problems he's d and Rick has these problems he's d and Rick has these problems he's d and they'll work backwards from there to a they'll work backwards from there to a they'll work backwards from there to a answer. That's how Amazon say they built answer. That's how Amazon say they built answer. That's how Amazon say they built the platform.

the platform. the platform. >> And and one of the quotes that's quite >> And and one of the quotes that's quite >> And and one of the quotes that's quite famous with Jeff Bezos is he bets on famous with Jeff Bezos is he bets on famous with Jeff Bezos is he bets on things that he knows won't change. He things that he knows won't change. He things that he knows won't change. He says, "No one in 10 is going to come up says, "No one in 10 is going to come up says, "No one in 10 is going to come up to me and say I wish my package would to me and say I wish my package would to me and say I wish my package would take longer." So he can double down on take longer." So he can double down on take longer." So he can double down on that solving a customer problem. Does that solving a customer problem. Does that solving a customer problem. Does that sit in contrast to what you're that sit in contrast to what you're that sit in contrast to what you're saying or is it the same thing or it's a saying or is it the same thing or it's a saying or is it the same thing or it's a different type of work? different type of work? different type of work? >> Well, I'll start by saying if you look >> Well, I'll start by saying if you look >> Well, I'll start by saying if you look at the history of Amazon, it was it lost at the history of Amazon, it was it lost at the history of Amazon, it was it lost money for probably 20 years. It was money for probably 20 years. It was money for probably 20 years. It was considered one of the worst investments considered one of the worst investments considered one of the worst investments until it wasn't. They kept doubling down until it wasn't. They kept doubling down until it wasn't. They kept doubling down on what they believed in. It wasn't on what they believed in. It wasn't on what they believed in. It wasn't working. The audience showed it didn't working. The audience showed it didn't working. The audience showed it didn't work. The model showed it didn't work, work. The model showed it didn't work, work. The model showed it didn't work, but they stuck to what they believed and but they stuck to what they believed and but they stuck to what they believed and it changed the world. it changed the world. it changed the world. >> So, it's it's the same thing. It's it's >> So, it's it's the same thing. It's it's >> So, it's it's the same thing. It's it's doubling down on what you believe in doubling down on what you believe in doubling down on what you believe in when all of the metrics are showing you when all of the metrics are showing you when all of the metrics are showing you it's not working. That's the story of it's not working. That's the story of it's not working. That's the story of Amazon. Amazon. Amazon. Do you think people are um have Do you think people are um have Do you think people are um have different levels of their ability to uh different levels of their ability to uh different levels of their ability to uh you know if we take practices like you know if we take practices like you know if we take practices like meditation aside, it just seems that meditation aside, it just seems that meditation aside, it just seems that through history some people are better through history some people are better through history some people are better at cultivating that or listening to that at cultivating that or listening to that at cultivating that or listening to that internal voice than others. Obviously, I internal voice than others. Obviously, I internal voice than others. Obviously, I sit here and interview these like some sit here and interview these like some sit here and interview these like some of these great founders and it appears of these great founders and it appears of these great founders and it appears that some people are just like that some people are just like that some people are just like inherently more creative than others.

inherently more creative than others. inherently more creative than others. Some people are in the analytical part Some people are in the analytical part Some people are in the analytical part of their brain and they need 1 plus one of their brain and they need 1 plus one of their brain and they need 1 plus one to equal two all the time. I'm wondering to equal two all the time. I'm wondering to equal two all the time. I'm wondering if you know there's other ways if you if you know there's other ways if you if you know there's other ways if you think there is an inherent difference in think there is an inherent difference in think there is an inherent difference in creativity. creativity. creativity. >> I think that creativity is beaten out of >> I think that creativity is beaten out of >> I think that creativity is beaten out of us over the course of our lives. I think us over the course of our lives. I think us over the course of our lives. I think we we go to school, we're told to repeat we we go to school, we're told to repeat we we go to school, we're told to repeat back what we're told. We're told to sit back what we're told. We're told to sit back what we're told. We're told to sit in a chair all day. We're where our in a chair all day. We're where our in a chair all day. We're where our spirits are broken by institutions. spirits are broken by institutions. spirits are broken by institutions. We're not taught to be free creative We're not taught to be free creative We're not taught to be free creative thinkers. We're taught to follow rules. thinkers. We're taught to follow rules. thinkers. We're taught to follow rules. The rules are not there to help us. The The rules are not there to help us. The The rules are not there to help us. The rules are there to control us. rules are there to control us. rules are there to control us. I'm suggesting we break free and be free I'm suggesting we break free and be free I'm suggesting we break free and be free and express ourselves freely. And that's and express ourselves freely. And that's and express ourselves freely. And that's our purpose here on the planet is to our purpose here on the planet is to our purpose here on the planet is to express ourselves freely. That's why express ourselves freely. That's why express ourselves freely. That's why we're here. we're here. we're here. >> What you're saying links to something we >> What you're saying links to something we >> What you're saying links to something we were talking about earlier, which is at were talking about earlier, which is at were talking about earlier, which is at a very young age, we're taught that the a very young age, we're taught that the a very young age, we're taught that the things we make are a means to a things we make are a means to a things we make are a means to a particular end, and that end is particular end, and that end is particular end, and that end is promotions, pay rises, capital, success, promotions, pay rises, capital, success, promotions, pay rises, capital, success, job titles.

job titles. job titles. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In the creative process, are you saying >> In the creative process, are you saying >> In the creative process, are you saying that it's never productive to talk about that it's never productive to talk about that it's never productive to talk about how we'll measure success and to try and how we'll measure success and to try and how we'll measure success and to try and optimize for that measurement optimize for that measurement optimize for that measurement >> in the creative process? I I would I >> in the creative process? I I would I >> in the creative process? I I would I tend not to think about those things. tend not to think about those things. tend not to think about those things. I can't think of an example where we I can't think of an example where we I can't think of an example where we would would would want to use data. want to use data. want to use data. [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] I think it's it's much more about this I think it's it's much more about this I think it's it's much more about this internal feeling and then the feeling we internal feeling and then the feeling we internal feeling and then the feeling we have when you play it for someone, when have when you play it for someone, when have when you play it for someone, when you share it with someone, whether it you share it with someone, whether it you share it with someone, whether it lights someone up. You can tell when lights someone up. You can tell when lights someone up. You can tell when someone really resonates with something. someone really resonates with something. someone really resonates with something. Sometimes the numbers don't show the Sometimes the numbers don't show the Sometimes the numbers don't show the numbers can't reflect that. You know, numbers can't reflect that. You know, numbers can't reflect that. You know, you can have two things that are kind of you can have two things that are kind of you can have two things that are kind of on equal footing commercially, on equal footing commercially, on equal footing commercially, yet one of them lights you up and the yet one of them lights you up and the yet one of them lights you up and the other one is, well, this gets the job other one is, well, this gets the job other one is, well, this gets the job done. They're different.

done. They're different. done. They're different. And longterm, chances are the one that And longterm, chances are the one that And longterm, chances are the one that lights you up is going to have more lights you up is going to have more lights you up is going to have more value to you and you'll be more willing value to you and you'll be more willing value to you and you'll be more willing to support that thing over time. to support that thing over time. to support that thing over time. >> In your book here, um, the creative act, >> In your book here, um, the creative act, >> In your book here, um, the creative act, a way of being, you talk about the a way of being, you talk about the a way of being, you talk about the things that block creativity, things that block creativity, things that block creativity, thoughts and habits not conducive thoughts and habits not conducive thoughts and habits not conducive to the work. Believing you're not good to the work. Believing you're not good to the work. Believing you're not good enough. enough. enough. >> That's a big one. Someone at some point >> That's a big one. Someone at some point >> That's a big one. Someone at some point in time you were singing and someone's in time you were singing and someone's in time you were singing and someone's like, "Ah, you can't sing at when you're like, "Ah, you can't sing at when you're like, "Ah, you can't sing at when you're a kid and that gets lodged in you. a kid and that gets lodged in you. a kid and that gets lodged in you. Singing is not something I can ever do Singing is not something I can ever do Singing is not something I can ever do or you're a terrible cook or you're a terrible cook or you're a terrible cook or you're not smart enough." So often or you're not smart enough." So often or you're not smart enough." So often the gifts that we have are stifled and the gifts that we have are stifled and the gifts that we have are stifled and smothered. smothered. smothered. We're all creative. We may not choose to We're all creative. We may not choose to We're all creative. We may not choose to embark on a creative make creative embark on a creative make creative embark on a creative make creative choices, but that's it's on us. We can choices, but that's it's on us. We can choices, but that's it's on us. We can we just have bad information. We we we just have bad information. We we we just have bad information. We we we're told we're not good enough and we we're told we're not good enough and we we're told we're not good enough and we believe it and it's not true. When believe it and it's not true. When believe it and it's not true. When people say that, oh, you know, Rick is a people say that, oh, you know, Rick is a people say that, oh, you know, Rick is a creative and Steven is say they say creative and Steven is say they say creative and Steven is say they say Steven is not a creative. What are they Steven is not a creative. What are they Steven is not a creative. What are they actually saying? What is that like in actually saying? What is that like in actually saying? What is that like in our culture to be a creative? how like our culture to be a creative? how like our culture to be a creative? how like we misunderstanding the definition. You we misunderstanding the definition. You we misunderstanding the definition. You see what I'm saying? Cuz we do we go see what I'm saying? Cuz we do we go see what I'm saying? Cuz we do we go creative. Uh they do a little bit of art creative. Uh they do a little bit of art creative. Uh they do a little bit of art and music stuff. Creative, not creative.

and music stuff. Creative, not creative. and music stuff. Creative, not creative. Excel documents. Creative. Excel documents. Creative. Excel documents. Creative. >> What are we actually saying there? >> What are we actually saying there? >> What are we actually saying there? >> I think it's a way to um >> I think it's a way to um >> I think it's a way to um try to simplify the world. The world is try to simplify the world. The world is try to simplify the world. The world is complicated and I think all of us can do complicated and I think all of us can do complicated and I think all of us can do anything. I I'm not saying all of us anything. I I'm not saying all of us anything. I I'm not saying all of us could do everything to the best of our could do everything to the best of our could do everything to the best of our ability better than anyone else. That's ability better than anyone else. That's ability better than anyone else. That's a big part of it is the idea of a big part of it is the idea of a big part of it is the idea of competition. competition. competition. Like if I want to play baseball, I know Like if I want to play baseball, I know Like if I want to play baseball, I know that I could get better at baseball. that I could get better at baseball. that I could get better at baseball. That doesn't mean I think I could get That doesn't mean I think I could get That doesn't mean I think I could get good enough to play on the Mets, but I good enough to play on the Mets, but I good enough to play on the Mets, but I know I could get better and I know I know I could get better and I know I know I could get better and I know I could train anything that I'm interested could train anything that I'm interested could train anything that I'm interested in and get much better at it. in and get much better at it. in and get much better at it. And as soon as we're not capable of And as soon as we're not capable of And as soon as we're not capable of playing for the Mets, we think it's not playing for the Mets, we think it's not playing for the Mets, we think it's not for us and we shut that off. We're not for us and we shut that off. We're not for us and we shut that off. We're not doing a service to ourselves. We're not doing a service to ourselves. We're not doing a service to ourselves. We're not becoming our best selves or really uh becoming our best selves or really uh becoming our best selves or really uh living up to our full potential as living up to our full potential as living up to our full potential as humans. humans. humans. Feels like a natural human instinct to Feels like a natural human instinct to Feels like a natural human instinct to compare in order to understand the value compare in order to understand the value compare in order to understand the value of anything. I feel like we do it when of anything. I feel like we do it when of anything. I feel like we do it when we go to restaurants. There's three we go to restaurants. There's three we go to restaurants. There's three stakes. The expensive one's probably a stakes. The expensive one's probably a stakes. The expensive one's probably a bit bougie. The cheap one's probably not bit bougie. The cheap one's probably not bit bougie. The cheap one's probably not good. I'll go for the middle one. Seems good. I'll go for the middle one. Seems good. I'll go for the middle one. Seems like a a way that humans take shortcuts, like a a way that humans take shortcuts, like a a way that humans take shortcuts, but we do it with ourselves as well. So, but we do it with ourselves as well. So, but we do it with ourselves as well. So, I know that the thing I've made is good I know that the thing I've made is good I know that the thing I've made is good as if I look over at your thing and mine as if I look over at your thing and mine as if I look over at your thing and mine is ranked better or mine is prettier or is ranked better or mine is prettier or is ranked better or mine is prettier or richer. Are you saying for us to get out richer. Are you saying for us to get out richer. Are you saying for us to get out of the business of comparison?

of the business of comparison? of the business of comparison? >> Yes. Because I'm saying it's it's always >> Yes. Because I'm saying it's it's always >> Yes. Because I'm saying it's it's always apples and oranges. If you if if you apples and oranges. If you if if you apples and oranges. If you if if you were to ask who's better, Michael were to ask who's better, Michael were to ask who's better, Michael Jackson or Prince, I would say Michael Jackson or Prince, I would say Michael Jackson or Prince, I would say Michael Jackson's much better at being Michael Jackson's much better at being Michael Jackson's much better at being Michael Jackson. And Prince is probably better Jackson. And Prince is probably better Jackson. And Prince is probably better at being Prince. But you can't compare at being Prince. But you can't compare at being Prince. But you can't compare what the two of them do. They do two what the two of them do. They do two what the two of them do. They do two different things. different things. different things. Before you mentioned Kanye West and and Before you mentioned Kanye West and and Before you mentioned Kanye West and and Drake, there's no competition there. Drake, there's no competition there. Drake, there's no competition there. They do two totally different things. They do two totally different things. They do two totally different things. What you get from each of them is What you get from each of them is What you get from each of them is totally different. I wouldn't want from totally different. I wouldn't want from totally different. I wouldn't want from Drake what I get from Kanye. And I Drake what I get from Kanye. And I Drake what I get from Kanye. And I certainly wouldn't want from Kanye what certainly wouldn't want from Kanye what certainly wouldn't want from Kanye what I get from Drake. It's It's pointless. I get from Drake. It's It's pointless. I get from Drake. It's It's pointless. >> Is either more creative. That's for you >> Is either more creative. That's for you >> Is either more creative. That's for you to decide. That's for you to decide. to decide. That's for you to decide. to decide. That's for you to decide. There's no The whole idea of competition There's no The whole idea of competition There's no The whole idea of competition between artists is it's such a weird between artists is it's such a weird between artists is it's such a weird thing. Again, it's back to who has a thing. Again, it's back to who has a thing. Again, it's back to who has a better diary entry. It's ridiculous. better diary entry. It's ridiculous. better diary entry. It's ridiculous. >> Feeling you don't have the energy it >> Feeling you don't have the energy it >> Feeling you don't have the energy it takes. These are all things that are not takes. These are all things that are not takes. These are all things that are not conducive to the work.

conducive to the work. conducive to the work. >> Yeah, I have that one sometimes. >> Yeah, I have that one sometimes. >> Yeah, I have that one sometimes. Feeling like I'm not up to it too much. Feeling like I'm not up to it too much. Feeling like I'm not up to it too much. I flew here yesterday from London. I'm I flew here yesterday from London. I'm I flew here yesterday from London. I'm tired. I'm a little jetlagged. I'm going tired. I'm a little jetlagged. I'm going tired. I'm a little jetlagged. I'm going to show up and talk to you. Maybe it to show up and talk to you. Maybe it to show up and talk to you. Maybe it won't be good. Maybe it's better to just won't be good. Maybe it's better to just won't be good. Maybe it's better to just lay down, relax, and recover. But I'm lay down, relax, and recover. But I'm lay down, relax, and recover. But I'm here. I show up. here. I show up. here. I show up. >> You've referred to yourself as a um a >> You've referred to yourself as a um a >> You've referred to yourself as a um a lazy workaholic. lazy workaholic. lazy workaholic. >> Yes, [laughter] >> Yes, [laughter] >> Yes, [laughter] >> it's true. >> it's true. >> it's true. >> What is a lazy workaholic? >> What is a lazy workaholic? >> What is a lazy workaholic? >> Often, most days, I would rather not do >> Often, most days, I would rather not do >> Often, most days, I would rather not do any of the things that I'm scheduled to any of the things that I'm scheduled to any of the things that I'm scheduled to do. and I schedule the things and I show do. and I schedule the things and I show do. and I schedule the things and I show up and I do what needs to get done. up and I do what needs to get done. up and I do what needs to get done. >> Do you ever settle with creative work? >> Do you ever settle with creative work? >> Do you ever settle with creative work? The the deadline for the record label is The the deadline for the record label is The the deadline for the record label is approaching. The work is not yet done. approaching. The work is not yet done. approaching. The work is not yet done. We'll finish here and we'll send it. We'll finish here and we'll send it. We'll finish here and we'll send it. >> I tend not to do that. I tend not to >> I tend not to do that. I tend not to >> I tend not to do that. I tend not to work on deadlines until we're past the work on deadlines until we're past the work on deadlines until we're past the point. The first time we would ever point. The first time we would ever point. The first time we would ever establish a deadline is when we already establish a deadline is when we already establish a deadline is when we already know we've cracked the code. We know know we've cracked the code. We know know we've cracked the code. We know what this is going to be. We can see it.

what this is going to be. We can see it. what this is going to be. We can see it. It may not be completely finished, but It may not be completely finished, but It may not be completely finished, but we have a good idea of what it is and we have a good idea of what it is and we have a good idea of what it is and how it's going to work and it's maybe how it's going to work and it's maybe how it's going to work and it's maybe 90% done. Then we might set a deadline 90% done. Then we might set a deadline 90% done. Then we might set a deadline for that last 10% of finishing it. And for that last 10% of finishing it. And for that last 10% of finishing it. And that last 10% probably won't make or that last 10% probably won't make or that last 10% probably won't make or break the project. break the project. break the project. Part of what you accept when you pursue Part of what you accept when you pursue Part of what you accept when you pursue the creative process you've described the creative process you've described the creative process you've described where it's really about like do I like where it's really about like do I like where it's really about like do I like it? Do we like it? is you will create it? Do we like it? is you will create it? Do we like it? is you will create things that are at some some points just things that are at some some points just things that are at some some points just absolute legendary and unlike anything absolute legendary and unlike anything absolute legendary and unlike anything else that exists. They are not the same. else that exists. They are not the same. else that exists. They are not the same. But part of the risk you take is you'll But part of the risk you take is you'll But part of the risk you take is you'll make things that other people just don't make things that other people just don't make things that other people just don't like. like. like. >> Yeah. That's all there is in this >> Yeah. That's all there is in this >> Yeah. That's all there is in this process is you have an idea, you build process is you have an idea, you build process is you have an idea, you build it. You may learn along the way that the it. You may learn along the way that the it. You may learn along the way that the idea was maybe not the best idea and it idea was maybe not the best idea and it idea was maybe not the best idea and it turns left and you make I I'm starting turns left and you make I I'm starting turns left and you make I I'm starting out to make this blue statue and it out to make this blue statue and it out to make this blue statue and it turns out to be this red painting. You turns out to be this red painting. You turns out to be this red painting. You don't know that going in, but you don't know that going in, but you don't know that going in, but you discover it through the process, and it discover it through the process, and it discover it through the process, and it could take a long time. Other times, could take a long time. Other times, could take a long time. Other times, you'll think, "I'm going to make this you'll think, "I'm going to make this you'll think, "I'm going to make this blue thing." You make it in 5 minutes.

blue thing." You make it in 5 minutes. blue thing." You make it in 5 minutes. There it is. Done. And and we can't you There it is. Done. And and we can't you There it is. Done. And and we can't you can't calculate that. You can't can't calculate that. You can't can't calculate that. You can't anticipate what's going to happen. But anticipate what's going to happen. But anticipate what's going to happen. But if I wasn't doing this experiment here, if I wasn't doing this experiment here, if I wasn't doing this experiment here, I would never get to the better thing. I would never get to the better thing. I would never get to the better thing. It happens all the time. And then It happens all the time. And then It happens all the time. And then sometimes you build it and it doesn't sometimes you build it and it doesn't sometimes you build it and it doesn't work for 20 years and then it becomes work for 20 years and then it becomes work for 20 years and then it becomes Amazon. Amazon. Amazon. >> I've thought a lot recently about how >> I've thought a lot recently about how >> I've thought a lot recently about how time horizons change the work that you time horizons change the work that you time horizons change the work that you do. And that's kind of also what I'm do. And that's kind of also what I'm do. And that's kind of also what I'm hearing there because in that example hearing there because in that example hearing there because in that example you gave of this blue statue thing. If you gave of this blue statue thing. If you gave of this blue statue thing. If you were under a time horizon, you you were under a time horizon, you you were under a time horizon, you wouldn't have the space for that wouldn't have the space for that wouldn't have the space for that exploration you've described. And exploration you've described. And exploration you've described. And actually in all of our lives, we I think actually in all of our lives, we I think actually in all of our lives, we I think apply time horizons. We say this part of apply time horizons. We say this part of apply time horizons. We say this part of my career is going to be 5 years. and in my career is going to be 5 years. and in my career is going to be 5 years. and in in those 5 years I want to achieve these in those 5 years I want to achieve these in those 5 years I want to achieve these things. How do you think about setting things. How do you think about setting things. How do you think about setting personal time horizons but also like personal time horizons but also like personal time horizons but also like creative time horizons? One of the creative time horizons? One of the creative time horizons? One of the things I talk about in the book is that things I talk about in the book is that things I talk about in the book is that there are different um phases of there are different um phases of there are different um phases of creativity. The first phase is the seed creativity. The first phase is the seed creativity. The first phase is the seed phase, then is the experimentation phase, then is the experimentation phase, then is the experimentation phase, then is the crafting phase and phase, then is the crafting phase and phase, then is the crafting phase and then is the finishing completion then is the finishing completion then is the finishing completion editorial phase. And you can't set a editorial phase. And you can't set a editorial phase. And you can't set a timeline timeline timeline early in that process. In the seed early in that process. In the seed early in that process. In the seed phase, you have to try a lot of things phase, you have to try a lot of things phase, you have to try a lot of things and it's going to take as long as it and it's going to take as long as it and it's going to take as long as it takes. And in the experimental phase, takes. And in the experimental phase, takes. And in the experimental phase, which is where you're taking the seeds which is where you're taking the seeds which is where you're taking the seeds and seeing what they want to be, that and seeing what they want to be, that and seeing what they want to be, that takes time. And then in the crafting takes time. And then in the crafting takes time. And then in the crafting phase, the third phase still takes time

phase, the third phase still takes time phase, the third phase still takes time because now you have the seed, you see because now you have the seed, you see because now you have the seed, you see what it wants to be. You've given it what it wants to be. You've given it what it wants to be. You've given it time to just state. You see how it time to just state. You see how it time to just state. You see how it grows. And now in the crafting phase, grows. And now in the crafting phase, grows. And now in the crafting phase, the third phase, you start trimming it the third phase, you start trimming it the third phase, you start trimming it and making it the way you see it. and making it the way you see it. and making it the way you see it. All of that has to happen before there's All of that has to happen before there's All of that has to happen before there's any idea of a timeline because until any idea of a timeline because until any idea of a timeline because until that time, you don't really know what that time, you don't really know what that time, you don't really know what you're making. It's a dream. But once you're making. It's a dream. But once you're making. It's a dream. But once you've gotten gone through these three you've gotten gone through these three you've gotten gone through these three phases and you have this thing in front phases and you have this thing in front phases and you have this thing in front of you, it may not be finished, but you of you, it may not be finished, but you of you, it may not be finished, but you see what it is. You see it and it's see what it is. You see it and it's see what it is. You see it and it's good. You're excited about it. When I good. You're excited about it. When I good. You're excited about it. When I say it's good, I mean it's good to me. say it's good, I mean it's good to me. say it's good, I mean it's good to me. That's it. That's where it ends. It's That's it. That's where it ends. It's That's it. That's where it ends. It's good to me. I like it enough that I'm good to me. I like it enough that I'm good to me. I like it enough that I'm willing to show it to you. If I like it willing to show it to you. If I like it willing to show it to you. If I like it enough that I'm willing to show it to enough that I'm willing to show it to enough that I'm willing to show it to you, I like it enough to show it to you, I like it enough to show it to you, I like it enough to show it to everybody. everybody. everybody. >> People will hear this as creative >> People will hear this as creative >> People will hear this as creative advice. I was hearing it as life advice. advice. I was hearing it as life advice. advice. I was hearing it as life advice. I was hearing the seed phase of my life, I was hearing the seed phase of my life, I was hearing the seed phase of my life, the experimentation phase of my life, the experimentation phase of my life, the experimentation phase of my life, the crafting phase. the crafting phase. the crafting phase. >> It's the same. It's all the same. And >> It's the same. It's all the same. And >> It's the same. It's all the same. And that's why the the creative act started that's why the the creative act started that's why the the creative act started with this idea of how to make things.

with this idea of how to make things. with this idea of how to make things. And it turned what I realized through And it turned what I realized through And it turned what I realized through writing the book is it's how to be in writing the book is it's how to be in writing the book is it's how to be in the world that that you you either live the world that that you you either live the world that that you you either live your life to allow these things to your life to allow these things to your life to allow these things to happen or you don't. And if you live happen or you don't. And if you live happen or you don't. And if you live your life to allow these things to your life to allow these things to your life to allow these things to happen, then you're an artist. Even if happen, then you're an artist. Even if happen, then you're an artist. Even if you're a businessman or if you're a chef you're a businessman or if you're a chef you're a businessman or if you're a chef or if you're a mother, or if you're a mother, or if you're a mother, you're living your life as an artist. you're living your life as an artist. you're living your life as an artist. You're embodying it You're embodying it You're embodying it and it's coming from you and it's I want and it's coming from you and it's I want and it's coming from you and it's I want to say it's who you are. It's not who to say it's who you are. It's not who to say it's who you are. It's not who you are, but it's who you are in that you are, but it's who you are in that you are, but it's who you are in that moment. I'm showing you this beautiful moment. I'm showing you this beautiful moment. I'm showing you this beautiful thing as a reflection of how I see the thing as a reflection of how I see the thing as a reflection of how I see the world today. Now, tomorrow I may see the world today. Now, tomorrow I may see the world today. Now, tomorrow I may see the world differently. That's fine. But when world differently. That's fine. But when world differently. That's fine. But when I share it with you, this is the best it I share it with you, this is the best it I share it with you, this is the best it can be in this moment. can be in this moment. can be in this moment. >> The reason I was asking this question >> The reason I was asking this question >> The reason I was asking this question about the um you know sometimes they the about the um you know sometimes they the about the um you know sometimes they the world might not like what you give it. world might not like what you give it. world might not like what you give it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is because because of this word failure >> Is because because of this word failure >> Is because because of this word failure which you talk about in the book as well which you talk about in the book as well which you talk about in the book as well and how to deal with failure. I guess a and how to deal with failure. I guess a and how to deal with failure. I guess a lot of the reason why people won't take lot of the reason why people won't take lot of the reason why people won't take the risk to listen to themselves to what the risk to listen to themselves to what the risk to listen to themselves to what they love is because of the word risk.

they love is because of the word risk. they love is because of the word risk. And with that comes I might lose money. And with that comes I might lose money. And with that comes I might lose money. I might lose friends. If I quit this job I might lose friends. If I quit this job I might lose friends. If I quit this job and pursue that violin hobby and go to and pursue that violin hobby and go to and pursue that violin hobby and go to Peru and violin up in Peru, my I'm going Peru and violin up in Peru, my I'm going Peru and violin up in Peru, my I'm going to lose friends. People are going to to lose friends. People are going to to lose friends. People are going to think I'm strange. So I I'll conform. think I'm strange. So I I'll conform. think I'm strange. So I I'll conform. Yeah. And I'm saying you have to do all Yeah. And I'm saying you have to do all Yeah. And I'm saying you have to do all of those things. Lose the friends. Take of those things. Lose the friends. Take of those things. Lose the friends. Take the risk. Now, I'm not I'm and and I'm the risk. Now, I'm not I'm and and I'm the risk. Now, I'm not I'm and and I'm also saying also saying also saying I'm not saying that for that 100% if you I'm not saying that for that 100% if you I'm not saying that for that 100% if you go move to Peru and be the violinist, go move to Peru and be the violinist, go move to Peru and be the violinist, it's going to work. And you may want to it's going to work. And you may want to it's going to work. And you may want to have an actual job to pay the bills have an actual job to pay the bills have an actual job to pay the bills while you're doing that. That's okay. while you're doing that. That's okay. while you're doing that. That's okay. The idea that it all has to be one The idea that it all has to be one The idea that it all has to be one thing. I have to do my dream thing and thing. I have to do my dream thing and thing. I have to do my dream thing and it has to be my prof. It has to be my it has to be my prof. It has to be my it has to be my prof. It has to be my hobby, my love, my profession. The way I hobby, my love, my profession. The way I hobby, my love, my profession. The way I support myself doesn't have to be. When support myself doesn't have to be. When support myself doesn't have to be. When I started making music, I thought I was I started making music, I thought I was I started making music, I thought I was going to have a real job and I'd make going to have a real job and I'd make going to have a real job and I'd make music and it would be my hobby. I would music and it would be my hobby. I would music and it would be my hobby. I would do it forever. I would do exactly what I do it forever. I would do exactly what I do it forever. I would do exactly what I was doing. But I thought I would have a was doing. But I thought I would have a was doing. But I thought I would have a real job to support myself to do these real job to support myself to do these real job to support myself to do these things that I want to do. Luckily, I was things that I want to do. Luckily, I was things that I want to do. Luckily, I was able to it it turned into its own thing able to it it turned into its own thing able to it it turned into its own thing by nothing that I did. Had no by nothing that I did. Had no by nothing that I did. Had no expectation that that it could be a expectation that that it could be a expectation that that it could be a profession. I had no it couldn't be. It profession. I had no it couldn't be. It profession. I had no it couldn't be. It was a ridiculous idea. I did it because was a ridiculous idea. I did it because was a ridiculous idea. I did it because I loved it. And while I was going to I loved it. And while I was going to I loved it. And while I was going to school and while I was probably going to school and while I was probably going to school and while I was probably going to go go to law school and I would have a go go to law school and I would have a go go to law school and I would have a regular job, day job, and I would do regular job, day job, and I would do regular job, day job, and I would do music as the love of my life. That's

music as the love of my life. That's music as the love of my life. That's what I would do. Luckily, I didn't have what I would do. Luckily, I didn't have what I would do. Luckily, I didn't have to do that. But that's what would have to do that. But that's what would have to do that. But that's what would have happened. A lot of people at that age happened. A lot of people at that age happened. A lot of people at that age are told to follow their passion, find are told to follow their passion, find are told to follow their passion, find their purpose, which sounds like this, their purpose, which sounds like this, their purpose, which sounds like this, you know, cuz the word passion is a you know, cuz the word passion is a you know, cuz the word passion is a singular word. And also the word find singular word. And also the word find singular word. And also the word find means I have to go go out there and means I have to go go out there and means I have to go go out there and actively pursue the thing. A lot of actively pursue the thing. A lot of actively pursue the thing. A lot of people listening now would would say, people listening now would would say, people listening now would would say, you know, I've been told to find my you know, I've been told to find my you know, I've been told to find my passion and when they look at their job passion and when they look at their job passion and when they look at their job in the factory or wherever it might be, in the factory or wherever it might be, in the factory or wherever it might be, whatever they're doing, they go, okay, whatever they're doing, they go, okay, whatever they're doing, they go, okay, this isn't it yet, but I will get there this isn't it yet, but I will get there this isn't it yet, but I will get there at some point later. at some point later. at some point later. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I will jump. So you're saying don't >> And I will jump. So you're saying don't >> And I will jump. So you're saying don't jump necessarily. There are realities of jump necessarily. There are realities of jump necessarily. There are realities of life that you have to deal with. I'm not life that you have to deal with. I'm not life that you have to deal with. I'm not saying ignore the fact that you get you saying ignore the fact that you get you saying ignore the fact that you get you have to pay rent or or say I'm happy have to pay rent or or say I'm happy have to pay rent or or say I'm happy living in my parents house until until living in my parents house until until living in my parents house until until it works. That's fine. I'm saying there it works. That's fine. I'm saying there it works. That's fine. I'm saying there are realities of life that have to be are realities of life that have to be are realities of life that have to be dealt with. Don't put the pressure of of dealt with. Don't put the pressure of of dealt with. Don't put the pressure of of that on your art because then you won't that on your art because then you won't that on your art because then you won't make the best decisions. You'll make make the best decisions. You'll make make the best decisions. You'll make short-term decisions based on real world short-term decisions based on real world short-term decisions based on real world issues that you have to deal with in issues that you have to deal with in issues that you have to deal with in that moment that won't support the that moment that won't support the that moment that won't support the long-term benefit of the work you're long-term benefit of the work you're long-term benefit of the work you're doing, the real work you're doing.

doing, the real work you're doing. doing, the real work you're doing. >> I'm sure you've sat there in those >> I'm sure you've sat there in those >> I'm sure you've sat there in those moments where you're trying to persuade moments where you're trying to persuade moments where you're trying to persuade an artist to follow themselves and what an artist to follow themselves and what an artist to follow themselves and what they No, they No, they No, >> I don't try to persuade anyone of >> I don't try to persuade anyone of >> I don't try to persuade anyone of anything. anything. anything. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> I don't I wouldn't use that word. I >> I don't I wouldn't use that word. I >> I don't I wouldn't use that word. I wouldn't use the word persuade. wouldn't use the word persuade. wouldn't use the word persuade. >> What word would you use? >> What word would you use? >> What word would you use? >> We talk about it. I I ask what are your >> We talk about it. I I ask what are your >> We talk about it. I I ask what are your what do you hope to accomplish and then what do you hope to accomplish and then what do you hope to accomplish and then I'd support that process. I'd support that process. I'd support that process. >> Can we role play? I pretend I'm an >> Can we role play? I pretend I'm an >> Can we role play? I pretend I'm an artist who wants to write an album. So, artist who wants to write an album. So, artist who wants to write an album. So, >> okay. So, I am actually learning to DJ. >> okay. So, I am actually learning to DJ. >> okay. So, I am actually learning to DJ. I've been learning for like 4 years. I've been learning for like 4 years. I've been learning for like 4 years. >> What would you say to me? So, I can come >> What would you say to me? So, I can come >> What would you say to me? So, I can come say Rick, I want to make an album. say Rick, I want to make an album. say Rick, I want to make an album. >> What would the first questions be to me? >> What would the first questions be to me? >> What would the first questions be to me? >> Play me the of all the things you've >> Play me the of all the things you've >> Play me the of all the things you've made, play me your favorites. Let's talk made, play me your favorites. Let's talk made, play me your favorites. Let's talk about it. I would listen to it and then about it. I would listen to it and then about it. I would listen to it and then we would talk about it. we would talk about it. we would talk about it. >> So, I play you uh let's say it's a a >> So, I play you uh let's say it's a a >> So, I play you uh let's say it's a a house song. I play it. I said, house song. I play it. I said, house song. I play it. I said, [laughter] "This is my favorite." [laughter] "This is my favorite." [laughter] "This is my favorite." >> I would tell you whatever I think about >> I would tell you whatever I think about >> I would tell you whatever I think about it. Honestly, it. Honestly, it. Honestly, >> honestly, even if you thought it was >> honestly, even if you thought it was >> honestly, even if you thought it was terrible. terrible. terrible. >> Yeah. I probably wouldn't say it in a in >> Yeah. I probably wouldn't say it in a in >> Yeah. I probably wouldn't say it in a in a unpleasant way, but I would probably a unpleasant way, but I would probably a unpleasant way, but I would probably ask more questions around it. Get ask ask more questions around it. Get ask ask more questions around it. Get ask how, you know, explain to me what it is how, you know, explain to me what it is how, you know, explain to me what it is that you like about it. How did you get that you like about it. How did you get that you like about it. How did you get to that? What equipment did you use? Was to that? What equipment did you use? Was to that? What equipment did you use? Was it fun making it? Was it a good it fun making it? Was it a good it fun making it? Was it a good experience? Have you played it for other experience? Have you played it for other experience? Have you played it for other people? What's it like? What's the people? What's it like? What's the people? What's it like? What's the experience like? What's the feeling you experience like? What's the feeling you experience like? What's the feeling you get when you when you're making it?

get when you when you're making it? get when you when you're making it? What's the feeling you get when you play What's the feeling you get when you play What's the feeling you get when you play it for a friend? Have you ever played it it for a friend? Have you ever played it it for a friend? Have you ever played it in a club? What's that like? I would in a club? What's that like? I would in a club? What's that like? I would listen to what you say and then we would listen to what you say and then we would listen to what you say and then we would talk about it. Often an artist will come talk about it. Often an artist will come talk about it. Often an artist will come to me, they'll tell me exactly what they to me, they'll tell me exactly what they to me, they'll tell me exactly what they want to do and then say, "I have no idea want to do and then say, "I have no idea want to do and then say, "I have no idea what I want to do. Can you help me?" what I want to do. Can you help me?" what I want to do. Can you help me?" It's like they can't they can't hear It's like they can't they can't hear It's like they can't they can't hear themselves. themselves. themselves. There's a we we all have this barrier There's a we we all have this barrier There's a we we all have this barrier between it's it's a little bit how between it's it's a little bit how between it's it's a little bit how therapy works. If you go to see a therapy works. If you go to see a therapy works. If you go to see a therapist, you might talk They might not therapist, you might talk They might not therapist, you might talk They might not say anything, but through the talking say anything, but through the talking say anything, but through the talking you start understanding you start understanding you start understanding what you believe, what you think, what's what you believe, what you think, what's what you believe, what you think, what's going on in your life. You might have going on in your life. You might have going on in your life. You might have epiphies just because someone's epiphies just because someone's epiphies just because someone's listening. Most people are not used to listening. Most people are not used to listening. Most people are not used to being heard, being heard, being heard, really heard, deeply heard. Often you really heard, deeply heard. Often you really heard, deeply heard. Often you will say something to someone and will say something to someone and will say something to someone and they're thinking about what they're they're thinking about what they're they're thinking about what they're going to say next, like what what going to say next, like what what going to say next, like what what they're they're not really hearing what they're they're not really hearing what they're they're not really hearing what you're saying.

you're saying. you're saying. And um I find if you really are there And um I find if you really are there And um I find if you really are there and listen to what someone's saying, and listen to what someone's saying, and listen to what someone's saying, they tell you what they want to do and they tell you what they want to do and they tell you what they want to do and then my job is to just help remove the then my job is to just help remove the then my job is to just help remove the roadblocks that they're putting in the roadblocks that they're putting in the roadblocks that they're putting in the way of themselves way of themselves way of themselves to get there. And when they say what to get there. And when they say what to get there. And when they say what they want to do but then ask you what they want to do but then ask you what they want to do but then ask you what they should do. they should do. they should do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is that a lack of sort of selfrust? What >> Is that a lack of sort of selfrust? What >> Is that a lack of sort of selfrust? What what is what is what is >> Yeah. Yes. But that lack of selfrust is >> Yeah. Yes. But that lack of selfrust is >> Yeah. Yes. But that lack of selfrust is what is the condition of the world? what is the condition of the world? what is the condition of the world? That's what we're that's how we're That's what we're that's how we're That's what we're that's how we're indoctrinated. We most people don't indoctrinated. We most people don't indoctrinated. We most people don't trust themselves. And it's a fine line trust themselves. And it's a fine line trust themselves. And it's a fine line because there are the few people who because there are the few people who because there are the few people who might seem to really trust themselves might seem to really trust themselves might seem to really trust themselves and you think, "Oh, they're and you think, "Oh, they're and you think, "Oh, they're egoomaniacs." H usually when someone egoomaniacs." H usually when someone egoomaniacs." H usually when someone really comes off as wildly egotistical, really comes off as wildly egotistical, really comes off as wildly egotistical, it's usually hiding some insecurities it's usually hiding some insecurities it's usually hiding some insecurities really. It's like a mask. So that's really. It's like a mask. So that's really. It's like a mask. So that's dealing with someone who's insecure and dealing with someone who's insecure and dealing with someone who's insecure and dealing with someone who's dealing with someone who's dealing with someone who's overconfident. It's often two sides of overconfident. It's often two sides of overconfident. It's often two sides of the same coin. And we're really looking the same coin. And we're really looking the same coin. And we're really looking for this middle place of reality. It's for this middle place of reality. It's for this middle place of reality. It's like not what you're afraid of about like not what you're afraid of about like not what you're afraid of about yourself, but or what other people are yourself, but or what other people are yourself, but or what other people are going to think, but where are you really going to think, but where are you really going to think, but where are you really on this? I often describe it as tasting on this? I often describe it as tasting on this? I often describe it as tasting food. Like if I gave you two pieces of food. Like if I gave you two pieces of food. Like if I gave you two pieces of pizza and say, "Taste the two pieces of pizza and say, "Taste the two pieces of pizza and say, "Taste the two pieces of pizza. Tell me which one you like pizza. Tell me which one you like pizza. Tell me which one you like better." It's not a hard question.

better." It's not a hard question. better." It's not a hard question. You'll probably say, "I like this one You'll probably say, "I like this one You'll probably say, "I like this one much better than this." And when I ask much better than this." And when I ask much better than this." And when I ask you which tastes better, you wouldn't you which tastes better, you wouldn't you which tastes better, you wouldn't say, "Well, I think this guy's going to say, "Well, I think this guy's going to say, "Well, I think this guy's going to like this pizza better. like this pizza better. like this pizza better. You would say, "This one tastes better You would say, "This one tastes better You would say, "This one tastes better to me." to me." to me." That's the goal is getting to that, That's the goal is getting to that, That's the goal is getting to that, "This one tastes better to me." Simple. "This one tastes better to me." Simple. "This one tastes better to me." Simple. We don't believe that it can be as We don't believe that it can be as We don't believe that it can be as simple as it is. And it is simple. simple as it is. And it is simple. simple as it is. And it is simple. If you were um to bet on an artist being If you were um to bet on an artist being If you were um to bet on an artist being one of these great artists that you've one of these great artists that you've one of these great artists that you've worked with because they have a set of worked with because they have a set of worked with because they have a set of characteristics or a perspective or a characteristics or a perspective or a characteristics or a perspective or a humility that is conducive with what humility that is conducive with what humility that is conducive with what you've seen results in exceptional work. you've seen results in exceptional work. you've seen results in exceptional work. What are those like similar attributes? What are those like similar attributes? What are those like similar attributes? As someone that does a lot of investing As someone that does a lot of investing As someone that does a lot of investing in entrepreneurs, um I was wondering if in entrepreneurs, um I was wondering if in entrepreneurs, um I was wondering if there were similarities even there cuz there were similarities even there cuz there were similarities even there cuz some of it sounded the same. some of it sounded the same. some of it sounded the same. >> I'm sure there are. Um, I asked a friend >> I'm sure there are. Um, I asked a friend >> I'm sure there are. Um, I asked a friend of mine who is a venture capital guy of mine who is a venture capital guy of mine who is a venture capital guy about when he's picking things to invest about when he's picking things to invest about when he's picking things to invest in, is it the premise of the business or in, is it the premise of the business or in, is it the premise of the business or is it the founder? And he said, it's is it the founder? And he said, it's is it the founder? And he said, it's always the founder doesn't matter what always the founder doesn't matter what always the founder doesn't matter what the business is.

the business is. the business is. >> He said, if I believe in the person, >> He said, if I believe in the person, >> He said, if I believe in the person, >> I'll back them. >> I'll back them. >> I'll back them. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And I suppose it's it would be the same with I suppose it's it would be the same with I suppose it's it would be the same with artists. just like it's it's the artists artists. just like it's it's the artists artists. just like it's it's the artists not like well they wrote a great song. not like well they wrote a great song. not like well they wrote a great song. The great song is more like the great The great song is more like the great The great song is more like the great product. It's like product. It's like product. It's like maybe they could do that again. maybe they could do that again. maybe they could do that again. But if you see that the way that they But if you see that the way that they But if you see that the way that they see music, the way that they innovate in see music, the way that they innovate in see music, the way that they innovate in the things that they make, the things that they make, the things that they make, that's a good sign. Tell you a story. that's a good sign. Tell you a story. that's a good sign. Tell you a story. Uh, the band The Strokes. Uh, the band The Strokes. Uh, the band The Strokes. >> I produced their new album, just came >> I produced their new album, just came >> I produced their new album, just came out maybe a month ago, and they had out maybe a month ago, and they had out maybe a month ago, and they had asked me to produce an album for them asked me to produce an album for them asked me to produce an album for them maybe maybe maybe I want to say 15 years ago, and I I want to say 15 years ago, and I I want to say 15 years ago, and I listened to the demos, and I didn't hear listened to the demos, and I didn't hear listened to the demos, and I didn't hear it. I didn't I didn't I'm not saying it it. I didn't I didn't I'm not saying it it. I didn't I didn't I'm not saying it couldn't be good. I just didn't see the couldn't be good. I just didn't see the couldn't be good. I just didn't see the way in. For me, it's like I don't think way in. For me, it's like I don't think way in. For me, it's like I don't think I should do this. I don't I don't feel I should do this. I don't I don't feel I should do this. I don't I don't feel it. And then they asked me another time it. And then they asked me another time it. And then they asked me another time maybe 12 years ago and I listened to the maybe 12 years ago and I listened to the maybe 12 years ago and I listened to the demos and I didn't hear it. I couldn't I demos and I didn't hear it. I couldn't I demos and I didn't hear it. I couldn't I just I don't see how to do it. So I just I don't see how to do it. So I just I don't see how to do it. So I passed.

passed. passed. >> I didn't see how to do it. Give me some >> I didn't see how to do it. Give me some >> I didn't see how to do it. Give me some color on what that means. color on what that means. color on what that means. >> Yeah. It's like um when I hear something >> Yeah. It's like um when I hear something >> Yeah. It's like um when I hear something and I know I can see a path. and I know I can see a path. and I know I can see a path. I can hear a thing. doesn't have to be I can hear a thing. doesn't have to be I can hear a thing. doesn't have to be good, but I could hear something in it good, but I could hear something in it good, but I could hear something in it of like I understand what this is and I of like I understand what this is and I of like I understand what this is and I can I'm c I want to see what this can can I'm c I want to see what this can can I'm c I want to see what this can become. become. become. >> I didn't feel that the first two times. >> I didn't feel that the first two times. >> I didn't feel that the first two times. And then on the first album we worked on And then on the first album we worked on And then on the first album we worked on together, which came out about 6 years together, which came out about 6 years together, which came out about 6 years ago, they sent me demos again. They were ago, they sent me demos again. They were ago, they sent me demos again. They were probably the worst demos they ever sent, probably the worst demos they ever sent, probably the worst demos they ever sent, but I could hear what it could be. And but I could hear what it could be. And but I could hear what it could be. And some one of the demos might be a 20 some one of the demos might be a 20 some one of the demos might be a 20 second voice note. Whereas in the past second voice note. Whereas in the past second voice note. Whereas in the past there were these produced demos of like there were these produced demos of like there were these produced demos of like here's our great new songs. But in this here's our great new songs. But in this here's our great new songs. But in this 202 voice note I could listen and think 202 voice note I could listen and think 202 voice note I could listen and think I really want to hear this whole song. I really want to hear this whole song. I really want to hear this whole song. Whatever this is this seed of an idea. Whatever this is this seed of an idea. Whatever this is this seed of an idea. This is going to be good. Has the This is going to be good. Has the This is going to be good. Has the potential to really be good.

potential to really be good. potential to really be good. >> How do you know? >> How do you know? >> How do you know? >> Feel it. There is no knowing. It's a >> Feel it. There is no knowing. It's a >> Feel it. There is no knowing. It's a it's a it's a knowingness. It's like I it's a it's a knowingness. It's like I it's a it's a knowingness. It's like I have a knowingness. I couldn't explain have a knowingness. I couldn't explain have a knowingness. I couldn't explain it to you. It's uh an internal it to you. It's uh an internal it to you. It's uh an internal experience. One of the things is again experience. One of the things is again experience. One of the things is again you tend to want to lean forward, not you tend to want to lean forward, not you tend to want to lean forward, not lean back. You tend to want to listen lean back. You tend to want to listen lean back. You tend to want to listen again, not skip to the next one. It again, not skip to the next one. It again, not skip to the next one. It generates curiosity. It generates generates curiosity. It generates generates curiosity. It generates interest and I want to know more. Do you set and I want to know more. Do you set goals in your own life? goals in your own life? goals in your own life? >> None. >> None. >> None. You strike me as someone who has a You strike me as someone who has a You strike me as someone who has a who is okay with uncertainty in a world who is okay with uncertainty in a world who is okay with uncertainty in a world where most people need certainty in where most people need certainty in where most people need certainty in order to take forward motion or take an order to take forward motion or take an order to take forward motion or take an action in a direction. I know action in a direction. I know action in a direction. I know uncertainty is real. I had a house in uncertainty is real. I had a house in uncertainty is real. I had a house in Malibu that was my main house with all Malibu that was my main house with all Malibu that was my main house with all of my possessions that 8 years ago of my possessions that 8 years ago of my possessions that 8 years ago burned in a fire. And when that burned in a fire. And when that burned in a fire. And when that happened, you very quickly see like I happened, you very quickly see like I happened, you very quickly see like I thought I would live there forever. When thought I would live there forever. When thought I would live there forever. When that happened, I realized, hm, that happened, I realized, hm, that happened, I realized, hm, impermanence is real.

impermanence is real. impermanence is real. >> I thought I was going to live there >> I thought I was going to live there >> I thought I was going to live there forever. It's gone now. It's it's a lot. forever. It's gone now. It's it's a lot. forever. It's gone now. It's it's a lot. It's a a dirt lot. It's a a dirt lot. It's a a dirt lot. So, I I don't think that we can know So, I I don't think that we can know So, I I don't think that we can know anything. We just kind of move along and anything. We just kind of move along and anything. We just kind of move along and make decisions based on the information make decisions based on the information make decisions based on the information we have at the time and life unfolds. we have at the time and life unfolds. we have at the time and life unfolds. I guess an analogy would be satnav in I guess an analogy would be satnav in I guess an analogy would be satnav in the car. You get in the car in the the car. You get in the car in the the car. You get in the car in the morning, you, you know, put your seat morning, you, you know, put your seat morning, you, you know, put your seat belt on, then you set your satnav and belt on, then you set your satnav and belt on, then you set your satnav and say, "This is my goal. This is where I say, "This is my goal. This is where I say, "This is my goal. This is where I want to go." And then you drive. So, you want to go." And then you drive. So, you want to go." And then you drive. So, you put action towards that goal. What put action towards that goal. What put action towards that goal. What you're saying sounds more like you just you're saying sounds more like you just you're saying sounds more like you just drive. drive. drive. >> Yeah. All the time. >> Yeah. All the time. >> Yeah. All the time. Yeah. I used to do that. I remember um Yeah. I used to do that. I remember um Yeah. I used to do that. I remember um It's funny you bring that up, but there It's funny you bring that up, but there It's funny you bring that up, but there was a period of time was a period of time was a period of time when I worked a lot in the recording when I worked a lot in the recording when I worked a lot in the recording studio. a lot of hours, many sessions at studio. a lot of hours, many sessions at studio. a lot of hours, many sessions at sometimes I made eight albums a year and sometimes I made eight albums a year and sometimes I made eight albums a year and I'd be working on different projects at I'd be working on different projects at I'd be working on different projects at the same time and then I would have a the same time and then I would have a the same time and then I would have a day off on the weekend and I wouldn't day off on the weekend and I wouldn't day off on the weekend and I wouldn't make any plans but I would just drive make any plans but I would just drive make any plans but I would just drive and just listen to music in the car and and just listen to music in the car and and just listen to music in the car and drive and I might end up somewhere but I drive and I might end up somewhere but I drive and I might end up somewhere but I might just drive for a couple of hours might just drive for a couple of hours might just drive for a couple of hours and relax and it felt good.

and relax and it felt good. and relax and it felt good. >> You might get lost though and that's the >> You might get lost though and that's the >> You might get lost though and that's the risk. risk. risk. >> That's okay. >> That's okay. >> That's okay. >> That's why we have goals in our life. >> That's why we have goals in our life. >> That's why we have goals in our life. That's why we make a 5year plan, a New That's why we make a 5year plan, a New That's why we make a 5year plan, a New Year's resolution. Yeah, I've never done Year's resolution. Yeah, I've never done Year's resolution. Yeah, I've never done any of those things. Couldn't imagine any of those things. Couldn't imagine any of those things. Couldn't imagine it. it. it. Seems like a a terrible limitation. Seems like a a terrible limitation. Seems like a a terrible limitation. As good as it can be, I could never As good as it can be, I could never As good as it can be, I could never imagine that. imagine that. imagine that. I would have much more ordinary I would have much more ordinary I would have much more ordinary understanding of the world than what understanding of the world than what understanding of the world than what what actually happens than seeing the what actually happens than seeing the what actually happens than seeing the impossible become possible on a regular impossible become possible on a regular impossible become possible on a regular basis. I certainly couldn't plan for basis. I certainly couldn't plan for basis. I certainly couldn't plan for that. now because it's happened so much that. now because it's happened so much that. now because it's happened so much in my life. I accept that's how it is in my life. I accept that's how it is in my life. I accept that's how it is and I'm on the ride. and I'm on the ride. and I'm on the ride. >> You accept the unknown and the >> You accept the unknown and the >> You accept the unknown and the uncertainty. uncertainty. uncertainty. >> The unknown. >> The unknown. >> The unknown. >> Is that something that we can all do or >> Is that something that we can all do or >> Is that something that we can all do or is that a privilege that you have now is that a privilege that you have now is that a privilege that you have now that you're so successful in that that you're so successful in that that you're so successful in that >> we limit ourselves in so many ways? >> we limit ourselves in so many ways? >> we limit ourselves in so many ways? I can remember a very successful artist I can remember a very successful artist I can remember a very successful artist who was going through a really hard time who was going through a really hard time who was going through a really hard time went out to dinner at this restaurant in went out to dinner at this restaurant in went out to dinner at this restaurant in Malibu. I remember specifically what it Malibu. I remember specifically what it Malibu. I remember specifically what it was. And I remember thinking this person was. And I remember thinking this person was. And I remember thinking this person might commit suicide. That's how I could might commit suicide. That's how I could might commit suicide. That's how I could feel their energy was so unbalanced unbalanced and so conflicted and they were and so conflicted and they were and so conflicted and they were suffering.

suffering. suffering. And I remember saying, you know, you And I remember saying, you know, you And I remember saying, you know, you don't have to keep doing this. You know, don't have to keep doing this. You know, don't have to keep doing this. You know, you've done a lot of great things. you've done a lot of great things. you've done a lot of great things. You've had great success. You can afford You've had great success. You can afford You've had great success. You can afford not to do this. And anytime you want to, not to do this. And anytime you want to, not to do this. And anytime you want to, you can say, you know what? I'm going to you can say, you know what? I'm going to you can say, you know what? I'm going to move to the other side of the world and move to the other side of the world and move to the other side of the world and live on the beach and just eat good live on the beach and just eat good live on the beach and just eat good food, play in the water. You're not food, play in the water. You're not food, play in the water. You're not obligated to continue doing what you're obligated to continue doing what you're obligated to continue doing what you're doing that's causing so much conflict in doing that's causing so much conflict in doing that's causing so much conflict in your life. your life. your life. you've done enough. you've done enough. you've done enough. And And And I found out years later, I didn't even I found out years later, I didn't even I found out years later, I didn't even know that the person really heard what I know that the person really heard what I know that the person really heard what I was saying cuz they were they were was saying cuz they were they were was saying cuz they were they were really in a a hard place. really in a a hard place. really in a a hard place. But years later, that person said to me, But years later, that person said to me, But years later, that person said to me, "Remember what you said? You said I "Remember what you said? You said I "Remember what you said? You said I could go I could check out." could go I could check out." could go I could check out." And he did. I He didn't do it in the way And he did. I He didn't do it in the way And he did. I He didn't do it in the way that I imagined. I didn't know that that I imagined. I didn't know that that I imagined. I didn't know that that's what happened, but he did that. that's what happened, but he did that. that's what happened, but he did that. I know several people who committed I know several people who committed I know several people who committed suicide and I have one friend, a good suicide and I have one friend, a good suicide and I have one friend, a good friend who friend who friend who unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide.

unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide. unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide. All of them when in those moments it's All of them when in those moments it's All of them when in those moments it's like they feel like the choices I've like they feel like the choices I've like they feel like the choices I've made have me boxed in and there's no way made have me boxed in and there's no way made have me boxed in and there's no way out. out. out. And when someone thinks that And when someone thinks that And when someone thinks that the the the the the the the the the inclination to commit suicide is the inclination to commit suicide is the inclination to commit suicide is the person knows something needs to die person knows something needs to die person knows something needs to die and they think the body needs to die. and they think the body needs to die. and they think the body needs to die. But in reality But in reality But in reality that those choices that they made, that that those choices that they made, that that those choices that they made, that lifestyle in that moment, that career lifestyle in that moment, that career lifestyle in that moment, that career path, that path, that path, that relationship, relationship, relationship, that's what needs to die. and they can that's what needs to die. and they can that's what needs to die. and they can go and start a whole new life. go and start a whole new life. go and start a whole new life. And we we don't see that. We we get very And we we don't see that. We we get very And we we don't see that. We we get very locked in thinking this is all there is locked in thinking this is all there is locked in thinking this is all there is and this is not all there is. This is and this is not all there is. This is and this is not all there is. This is what we have chosen what we have chosen what we have chosen and we're going along on this path and and we're going along on this path and and we're going along on this path and at any time we say you know what I want at any time we say you know what I want at any time we say you know what I want to do it all differently.

to do it all differently. to do it all differently. I want to start a whole new life in a I want to start a whole new life in a I want to start a whole new life in a whole new way. And you and that doesn't whole new way. And you and that doesn't whole new way. And you and that doesn't take a lot of money to do. It might take take a lot of money to do. It might take take a lot of money to do. It might take less money to do because you can move to less money to do because you can move to less money to do because you can move to somewhere in the world that costs somewhere in the world that costs somewhere in the world that costs nothing to live, beautiful places where nothing to live, beautiful places where nothing to live, beautiful places where people are happy. It's just a choice. people are happy. It's just a choice. people are happy. It's just a choice. It's almost like we're playing a game. It's almost like we're playing a game. It's almost like we're playing a game. It's a game of chess. It's a game of chess. It's a game of chess. You can get up and leave the table and You can get up and leave the table and You can get up and leave the table and not play anymore and go on and play a not play anymore and go on and play a not play anymore and go on and play a different game and have fun. different game and have fun. different game and have fun. It's always available to us. It's always available to us. It's always available to us. You could press a button and it all goes You could press a button and it all goes You could press a button and it all goes away. And it doesn't mean that you have away. And it doesn't mean that you have away. And it doesn't mean that you have to die for that to happen. Just that to die for that to happen. Just that to die for that to happen. Just that scenario has to stop and you go on find scenario has to stop and you go on find scenario has to stop and you go on find a new one. I've seen a lot online again a new one. I've seen a lot online again a new one. I've seen a lot online again about how to find your flow. That about how to find your flow. That about how to find your flow. That feeling when everything just clicked, feeling when everything just clicked, feeling when everything just clicked, distractions disappear, and suddenly distractions disappear, and suddenly distractions disappear, and suddenly you're operating at your very very best. you're operating at your very very best. you're operating at your very very best. But most of us treat flow like it's But most of us treat flow like it's But most of us treat flow like it's something that just happens randomly. something that just happens randomly. something that just happens randomly. But when you're operating at the highest But when you're operating at the highest But when you're operating at the highest level, you can't just leave that to level, you can't just leave that to level, you can't just leave that to chance, or at least you don't want to. chance, or at least you don't want to. chance, or at least you don't want to. Bad days are expensive and you need to Bad days are expensive and you need to Bad days are expensive and you need to be able to zone in on demand. That's the be able to zone in on demand. That's the be able to zone in on demand. That's the idea behind our sponsor, Ketone IQ, a idea behind our sponsor, Ketone IQ, a idea behind our sponsor, Ketone IQ, a company I've invested in and become a company I've invested in and become a company I've invested in and become a co-owner of because I've seen for myself co-owner of because I've seen for myself co-owner of because I've seen for myself the profound impact it has on me as a the profound impact it has on me as a the profound impact it has on me as a podcaster. Sometimes I'm here with an podcaster. Sometimes I'm here with an podcaster. Sometimes I'm here with an investor or a business person or a investor or a business person or a investor or a business person or a philosopher or someone talking about philosopher or someone talking about philosopher or someone talking about menopause, whatever it might be. I need menopause, whatever it might be. I need menopause, whatever it might be. I need my brain to be sharp. Keto IQ is a my brain to be sharp. Keto IQ is a my brain to be sharp. Keto IQ is a premium focus fuel for your brain and premium focus fuel for your brain and premium focus fuel for your brain and delivers sustained mental clarity and delivers sustained mental clarity and delivers sustained mental clarity and focus so you can be more intentional focus so you can be more intentional focus so you can be more intentional about creating the conditions for about creating the conditions for about creating the conditions for focused work. And it's no longer just focused work. And it's no longer just focused work. And it's no longer just chance because your best work shouldn't

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A lot of the um the prison that I think A lot of the um the prison that I think uh uh uh I almost hear you sort of referring to I almost hear you sort of referring to I almost hear you sort of referring to that we've kind of built that makes us that we've kind of built that makes us that we've kind of built that makes us feel boxed in is our identity. feel boxed in is our identity. feel boxed in is our identity. >> This word identity. I am a lawyer in >> This word identity. I am a lawyer in >> This word identity. I am a lawyer in Manhattan and a father and a and I took Manhattan and a father and a and I took Manhattan and a father and a and I took that identity. It's almost a bit of a that identity. It's almost a bit of a that identity. It's almost a bit of a trade I made. I I accepted it which trade I made. I I accepted it which trade I made. I I accepted it which meant that at cocktail parties people meant that at cocktail parties people meant that at cocktail parties people were impressed by me. were impressed by me. were impressed by me. >> Yeah. And so, you know, we traded >> Yeah. And so, you know, we traded >> Yeah. And so, you know, we traded something for something else and now something for something else and now something for something else and now we're boxed in. And now a lot, you know, we're boxed in. And now a lot, you know, we're boxed in. And now a lot, you know, I hear a lot from our listeners on this I hear a lot from our listeners on this I hear a lot from our listeners on this show like they feel stuck. show like they feel stuck. show like they feel stuck. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We're free. >> We're free. >> We're free. We're free. We just have to choose to We're free. We just have to choose to We're free. We just have to choose to take advantage of this human gift of take advantage of this human gift of take advantage of this human gift of freedom and we can start over. freedom and we can start over. freedom and we can start over. I remember the one close friend who I remember the one close friend who I remember the one close friend who tried to commit suicide and didn't tried to commit suicide and didn't tried to commit suicide and didn't luckily lived. I went to visit him in luckily lived. I went to visit him in luckily lived. I went to visit him in the hospital. the hospital. the hospital. He was laying in in a hospital bed and He was laying in in a hospital bed and He was laying in in a hospital bed and he was seemingly catatonic. He hadn't he was seemingly catatonic. He hadn't he was seemingly catatonic. He hadn't spoke since this happened. And I was spoke since this happened. And I was spoke since this happened. And I was standing in the hallway standing in the hallway standing in the hallway and there were a series of his friends and there were a series of his friends and there were a series of his friends coming to see him. Everybody would go coming to see him. Everybody would go coming to see him. Everybody would go into the room one at a time. And I into the room one at a time. And I into the room one at a time. And I listened to the two people who went in listened to the two people who went in listened to the two people who went in before me and they were crying and they before me and they were crying and they before me and they were crying and they were acting as if he had died.

were acting as if he had died. were acting as if he had died. Now he's laying there. He's in fetal Now he's laying there. He's in fetal Now he's laying there. He's in fetal position. He's not saying a word. And position. He's not saying a word. And position. He's not saying a word. And I'm just thinking this this is really I'm just thinking this this is really I'm just thinking this this is really weird. This is it's really the whole weird. This is it's really the whole weird. This is it's really the whole scene is weird. Never seen anything like scene is weird. Never seen anything like scene is weird. Never seen anything like it before. it before. it before. And my first thought was the people who And my first thought was the people who And my first thought was the people who are going in there and talking to him, are going in there and talking to him, are going in there and talking to him, they have no idea how to act. None of us they have no idea how to act. None of us they have no idea how to act. None of us do because this is an unusual situ do because this is an unusual situ do because this is an unusual situ unless you've been in it, which I hadn't unless you've been in it, which I hadn't unless you've been in it, which I hadn't been before, you'd have no idea what to been before, you'd have no idea what to been before, you'd have no idea what to do. But I knew from listening, do. But I knew from listening, do. But I knew from listening, this is not the best. What they're doing this is not the best. What they're doing this is not the best. What they're doing is not the best situation. There's a is not the best situation. There's a is not the best situation. There's a better way. And I was the next one in. better way. And I was the next one in. better way. And I was the next one in. And I went in and I looked down and I And I went in and I looked down and I And I went in and I looked down and I said, said, said, again, I don't know where this came again, I don't know where this came again, I don't know where this came from, but it came. I said, from, but it came. I said, from, but it came. I said, "This may be hard for you to see right "This may be hard for you to see right "This may be hard for you to see right now, but you're in the sweet spot." now, but you're in the sweet spot." now, but you're in the sweet spot." And I remember saying that and he looked And I remember saying that and he looked And I remember saying that and he looked at me and he looked at me like I was at me and he looked at me like I was at me and he looked at me like I was insane.

insane. insane. But it was the first re the first time But it was the first re the first time But it was the first re the first time anyone the first thing he reacted to was anyone the first thing he reacted to was anyone the first thing he reacted to was that. that. that. And I said, "You just hit the reset And I said, "You just hit the reset And I said, "You just hit the reset button." button." button." I said, "All of the things that you hate I said, "All of the things that you hate I said, "All of the things that you hate to do, that you feel obligated to do, to do, that you feel obligated to do, to do, that you feel obligated to do, that you feel committed to do, that made that you feel committed to do, that made that you feel committed to do, that made you want to not be here anymore, you want to not be here anymore, you want to not be here anymore, you just hit the reset button. You never you just hit the reset button. You never you just hit the reset button. You never have to do any of those things again. have to do any of those things again. have to do any of those things again. And now you can do anything you want. And now you can do anything you want. And now you can do anything you want. you're free to start. All of those old you're free to start. All of those old you're free to start. All of those old ideas, none of those obligations are ideas, none of those obligations are ideas, none of those obligations are hanging over your head. And we ended up hanging over your head. And we ended up hanging over your head. And we ended up having a really nice conversation and he having a really nice conversation and he having a really nice conversation and he got up and he got dressed and he was got up and he got dressed and he was got up and he got dressed and he was like himself. It was an amazing an like himself. It was an amazing an like himself. It was an amazing an amazing experience. amazing experience. amazing experience. But that that's how But that that's how But that that's how boxed in we feel. boxed in we feel. boxed in we feel. But it's all just a story. It's not But it's all just a story. It's not But it's all just a story. It's not true. We are free.

true. We are free. true. We are free. Is there a step one in that direction Is there a step one in that direction Is there a step one in that direction for people that want to hit the reset for people that want to hit the reset for people that want to hit the reset button? Is there a first step? button? Is there a first step? button? Is there a first step? >> Well, I would try to see what are the >> Well, I would try to see what are the >> Well, I would try to see what are the things in your life that really you want things in your life that really you want things in your life that really you want to change and then think about what's to change and then think about what's to change and then think about what's the what's the cleanest way to change the what's the cleanest way to change the what's the cleanest way to change them, leaving a job, leaving a them, leaving a job, leaving a them, leaving a job, leaving a relationship. relationship. relationship. You know the the reason these things You know the the reason these things You know the the reason these things happen is we make commitments with good happen is we make commitments with good happen is we make commitments with good intentions and then when it's hard to intentions and then when it's hard to intentions and then when it's hard to keep the commitment is where it starts keep the commitment is where it starts keep the commitment is where it starts feeling boxed in. Now I think feeling boxed in. Now I think feeling boxed in. Now I think commitments are a good thing both to commitments are a good thing both to commitments are a good thing both to make and to keep. That said there can be make and to keep. That said there can be make and to keep. That said there can be a point where it becomes life and death. a point where it becomes life and death. a point where it becomes life and death. It's like this commitment that I made It's like this commitment that I made It's like this commitment that I made was a mistake and it was and or was a mistake and it was and or was a mistake and it was and or something changed. Maybe the person that something changed. Maybe the person that something changed. Maybe the person that I married became an alcoholic and it's I married became an alcoholic and it's I married became an alcoholic and it's really hard living with an alcoholic and really hard living with an alcoholic and really hard living with an alcoholic and it's not fun. This is not what we signed it's not fun. This is not what we signed it's not fun. This is not what we signed up for and I can do everything I can to up for and I can do everything I can to up for and I can do everything I can to help this person but maybe nothing works help this person but maybe nothing works help this person but maybe nothing works and at some point it's okay to hit the and at some point it's okay to hit the and at some point it's okay to hit the reset button and say you know what reset button and say you know what reset button and say you know what you're not doing any favors if you're if you're not doing any favors if you're if you're not doing any favors if you're if you're locked in a situation. I have a you're locked in a situation. I have a you're locked in a situation. I have a lot of friends who are in relationships lot of friends who are in relationships lot of friends who are in relationships and maybe the relationship has gone and maybe the relationship has gone and maybe the relationship has gone south but they stay in it because both south but they stay in it because both south but they stay in it because both both sides of the couple feel like this both sides of the couple feel like this both sides of the couple feel like this is the life we signed up for [sighs] is the life we signed up for [sighs] is the life we signed up for [sighs] and in reality you're not doing any and in reality you're not doing any and in reality you're not doing any favors for the person being unhappy in a

favors for the person being unhappy in a favors for the person being unhappy in a relationship. It's the nature of love is relationship. It's the nature of love is relationship. It's the nature of love is it's a two-way street or the same the it's a two-way street or the same the it's a two-way street or the same the same I can say if someone is in love same I can say if someone is in love same I can say if someone is in love with someone and the other person un with someone and the other person un with someone and the other person un unrequited love the person's not in love unrequited love the person's not in love unrequited love the person's not in love with them there's no really such thing with them there's no really such thing with them there's no really such thing because the nature of love is it's like because the nature of love is it's like because the nature of love is it's like a negative and a positive magnet a negative and a positive magnet a negative and a positive magnet pull pulling towards each other. pull pulling towards each other. pull pulling towards each other. You can't have one side of the magnet in You can't have one side of the magnet in You can't have one side of the magnet in love. It doesn't work. And it's just a love. It doesn't work. And it's just a love. It doesn't work. And it's just a fantasy of what you know, it's a it's a fantasy of what you know, it's a it's a fantasy of what you know, it's a it's a beautiful fantasy of what you think like beautiful fantasy of what you think like beautiful fantasy of what you think like as an optimist, it could be so as an optimist, it could be so as an optimist, it could be so beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, but if it's not there, but if it's not there, but if it's not there, it's best for everyone involved. it's best for everyone involved. it's best for everyone involved. Sometime I have some friends who feel Sometime I have some friends who feel Sometime I have some friends who feel like, well, I don't want to break up like, well, I don't want to break up like, well, I don't want to break up with them because it'll it'll um it'll with them because it'll it'll um it'll with them because it'll it'll um it'll destroy them. It's not true. It's better destroy them. It's not true. It's better destroy them. It's not true. It's better for everyone involved if it's not for everyone involved if it's not for everyone involved if it's not working to find the new beautiful life.

working to find the new beautiful life. working to find the new beautiful life. You can do that. It's okay. I imagine as You can do that. It's okay. I imagine as You can do that. It's okay. I imagine as well there's some people who um have well there's some people who um have well there's some people who um have lots of small misalignments. None of lots of small misalignments. None of lots of small misalignments. None of them are are huge issues on their own, them are are huge issues on their own, them are are huge issues on their own, but now they have a life full of hundred but now they have a life full of hundred but now they have a life full of hundred small misaligned things. Could be small misaligned things. Could be small misaligned things. Could be anything. Um and so their life feels anything. Um and so their life feels anything. Um and so their life feels really fundamentally misaligned, but really fundamentally misaligned, but really fundamentally misaligned, but it's actually just maybe they struggled it's actually just maybe they struggled it's actually just maybe they struggled with honesty across many little areas of with honesty across many little areas of with honesty across many little areas of their life. their life. their life. >> Yeah. And maybe those can be worked on >> Yeah. And maybe those can be worked on >> Yeah. And maybe those can be worked on and maybe it can be fixed. But in either and maybe it can be fixed. But in either and maybe it can be fixed. But in either case, don't let it just linger, you case, don't let it just linger, you case, don't let it just linger, you know, repair them. It's hard know, repair them. It's hard know, repair them. It's hard conversations there, Rick. conversations there, Rick. conversations there, Rick. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people aren't good at that. >> A lot of people aren't good at that. >> A lot of people aren't good at that. But, you know, people pleasers and But, you know, people pleasers and But, you know, people pleasers and there's a through line here with there's a through line here with there's a through line here with creativity generally. I think this idea creativity generally. I think this idea creativity generally. I think this idea of like people pleasing, the difficult of like people pleasing, the difficult of like people pleasing, the difficult conversation. And I've obviously seen conversation. And I've obviously seen conversation. And I've obviously seen from some of the things you've mentioned from some of the things you've mentioned from some of the things you've mentioned through this conversation, like you through this conversation, like you through this conversation, like you would be willing to tell people like would be willing to tell people like would be willing to tell people like this isn't for me. I imagine you offered this isn't for me. I imagine you offered this isn't for me. I imagine you offered a lot of money a lot of the time as a lot of money a lot of the time as a lot of money a lot of the time as well. well. well. >> Yeah. How do you sort of pass through >> Yeah. How do you sort of pass through >> Yeah. How do you sort of pass through that if you're offered a ton of money to that if you're offered a ton of money to that if you're offered a ton of money to do something but at some level it's not do something but at some level it's not do something but at some level it's not aligned with your principles or values aligned with your principles or values aligned with your principles or values or or or >> I want to make good things like I want >> I want to make good things like I want >> I want to make good things like I want to make something good.

to make something good. to make something good. >> Have you turned down large numbers of in >> Have you turned down large numbers of in >> Have you turned down large numbers of in in terms of money or other incentives in terms of money or other incentives in terms of money or other incentives because you didn't feel something was because you didn't feel something was because you didn't feel something was going to be good or was aligned or going to be good or was aligned or going to be good or was aligned or >> Yeah, I'm sure I have. I can't think of >> Yeah, I'm sure I have. I can't think of >> Yeah, I'm sure I have. I can't think of examples but I'm sure I have. I I I examples but I'm sure I have. I I I examples but I'm sure I have. I I I don't think about the stuff like I think don't think about the stuff like I think don't think about the stuff like I think about the things I do. I don't think about the things I do. I don't think about the things I do. I don't think about things I don't do, you know. about things I don't do, you know. about things I don't do, you know. >> Does it matter to you the money part of >> Does it matter to you the money part of >> Does it matter to you the money part of it? it? it? >> I want to be in success. >> I want to be in success. >> I want to be in success. I want to participate in the success. I I want to participate in the success. I I want to participate in the success. I think that's right. That feels right to think that's right. That feels right to think that's right. That feels right to me. I never make a decision me. I never make a decision me. I never make a decision for a financial reason. That said, if we for a financial reason. That said, if we for a financial reason. That said, if we make something successful, make something successful, make something successful, that's valuable. that's valuable. that's valuable. >> And in your own life, and we're talking >> And in your own life, and we're talking >> And in your own life, and we're talking there about mental health through your there about mental health through your there about mental health through your early 30s, you had a depressive episode early 30s, you had a depressive episode early 30s, you had a depressive episode yourself. yourself. yourself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Was there a causal factor? And how how >> Was there a causal factor? And how how >> Was there a causal factor? And how how important was that in shaping how you important was that in shaping how you important was that in shaping how you think generally about the world and the think generally about the world and the think generally about the world and the art and the creativity? Cuz I know it art and the creativity? Cuz I know it art and the creativity? Cuz I know it I've heard you say on News Day that it I've heard you say on News Day that it I've heard you say on News Day that it changed you permanently.

changed you permanently. changed you permanently. >> It did. Take me into that part of your >> It did. Take me into that part of your >> It did. Take me into that part of your life. You're 33 years old, my age. life. You're 33 years old, my age. life. You're 33 years old, my age. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What What happened? >> What What happened? >> What What happened? >> What happened was I had been an only >> What happened was I had been an only >> What happened was I had been an only child. child. child. My parents really loved me, really cared My parents really loved me, really cared My parents really loved me, really cared about me, always supportive. about me, always supportive. about me, always supportive. I went to school. I started making music I went to school. I started making music I went to school. I started making music as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life of its own and becoming a business and of its own and becoming a business and of its own and becoming a business and had great success for all those years. had great success for all those years. had great success for all those years. And then at 33 for the first time And then at 33 for the first time And then at 33 for the first time it got called into question. I had a it got called into question. I had a it got called into question. I had a business relationship with a big business relationship with a big business relationship with a big company. The person who I was in company. The person who I was in company. The person who I was in relationship with was one of the relationship with was one of the relationship with was one of the probably the top person in the whole probably the top person in the whole probably the top person in the whole music industry. Well-loved, beautiful music industry. Well-loved, beautiful music industry. Well-loved, beautiful person, one of my mentors. He got person, one of my mentors. He got person, one of my mentors. He got politically forced out and a new person politically forced out and a new person politically forced out and a new person was put in who I didn't have a was put in who I didn't have a was put in who I didn't have a relationship with. And that person relationship with. And that person relationship with. And that person called me and said, 'I read your I read called me and said, 'I read your I read called me and said, 'I read your I read our agreement because he had adopted the our agreement because he had adopted the our agreement because he had adopted the agreement that I had with my mentor.

agreement that I had with my mentor. agreement that I had with my mentor. He's like, I don't like it. When you He's like, I don't like it. When you He's like, I don't like it. When you come back to California, we should talk come back to California, we should talk come back to California, we should talk about it. That was it. That was the about it. That was it. That was the about it. That was it. That was the whole conversation. Now, for me, I I whole conversation. Now, for me, I I whole conversation. Now, for me, I I didn't I didn't know because I'd had didn't I didn't know because I'd had didn't I didn't know because I'd had so much success for so long. I never I so much success for so long. I never I so much success for so long. I never I never had to deal with any instability never had to deal with any instability never had to deal with any instability in my life in that way. I felt like the in my life in that way. I felt like the in my life in that way. I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me rug had been pulled out from under me rug had been pulled out from under me and I had a started having panic attacks and I had a started having panic attacks and I had a started having panic attacks and couldn't sleep and got really sick. and couldn't sleep and got really sick. and couldn't sleep and got really sick. And again, for for almost anyone else, And again, for for almost anyone else, And again, for for almost anyone else, the exact same scenario would have been, the exact same scenario would have been, the exact same scenario would have been, okay, we'll deal with it when I get okay, we'll deal with it when I get okay, we'll deal with it when I get there, no problem, and move on. But I there, no problem, and move on. But I there, no problem, and move on. But I didn't have the ability to deal with it didn't have the ability to deal with it didn't have the ability to deal with it because I never had to deal with because I never had to deal with because I never had to deal with anything like that. I didn't have the anything like that. I didn't have the anything like that. I didn't have the musculature to deal with that issue. musculature to deal with that issue. musculature to deal with that issue. and it felt like the rug was pulled out. and it felt like the rug was pulled out. and it felt like the rug was pulled out. I didn't know what to do and sunk and I didn't know what to do and sunk and I didn't know what to do and sunk and then it ended up going on for years. then it ended up going on for years. then it ended up going on for years. Even after the problem was solved, I Even after the problem was solved, I Even after the problem was solved, I ended up leaving the company, starting a ended up leaving the company, starting a ended up leaving the company, starting a relationship with a new company.

relationship with a new company. relationship with a new company. Everything was fine. But some it's like Everything was fine. But some it's like Everything was fine. But some it's like it was like a a it was like I was a it was like a a it was like I was a it was like a a it was like I was a balloon that got burst in that moment. balloon that got burst in that moment. balloon that got burst in that moment. And I'm still not the same person as I And I'm still not the same person as I And I'm still not the same person as I was before. was before. was before. Now maybe now I'm more rooted in reality Now maybe now I'm more rooted in reality Now maybe now I'm more rooted in reality which probably sounds funny after a lot which probably sounds funny after a lot which probably sounds funny after a lot of the things I've been saying before of the things I've been saying before of the things I've been saying before that I would say I never questioned that I would say I never questioned that I would say I never questioned anything. It was just like everything anything. It was just like everything anything. It was just like everything was always rolling in this one direction was always rolling in this one direction was always rolling in this one direction and that was the first time that it was and that was the first time that it was and that was the first time that it was questioned and I questioned and I questioned and I it sunk me and it took years to get out it sunk me and it took years to get out it sunk me and it took years to get out of it. of it. of it. What I will say though is that because What I will say though is that because What I will say though is that because of that, of that, of that, so many of the artists I work with deal so many of the artists I work with deal so many of the artists I work with deal with a lot of personal issues. And with a lot of personal issues. And with a lot of personal issues. And before that, before I was 33, I probably before that, before I was 33, I probably before that, before I was 33, I probably didn't understand how they felt as much didn't understand how they felt as much didn't understand how they felt as much as I do now because now I've had an as I do now because now I've had an as I do now because now I've had an experience experience experience where I feel like the bottom fell out.

where I feel like the bottom fell out. where I feel like the bottom fell out. I would say it has helped my I would say it has helped my I would say it has helped my understanding of the artists I work understanding of the artists I work understanding of the artists I work with. with. with. >> On your desert island discs, you said it >> On your desert island discs, you said it >> On your desert island discs, you said it wasn't anything that I understood. I wasn't anything that I understood. I wasn't anything that I understood. I thought I was dying. thought I was dying. thought I was dying. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The essence of this is a it was your >> The essence of this is a it was your >> The essence of this is a it was your first sort of big professional, dare I first sort of big professional, dare I first sort of big professional, dare I say, rejection. say, rejection. say, rejection. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was wrapped up in that in who I was >> I was wrapped up in that in who I was >> I was wrapped up in that in who I was and that questioned who I was. and that questioned who I was. and that questioned who I was. for the first time for the first time for the first time >> and you went to therapy. Yes. Went to >> and you went to therapy. Yes. Went to >> and you went to therapy. Yes. Went to therapy and ended up uh using an therapy and ended up uh using an therapy and ended up uh using an anti-depressant drug, which I tend not anti-depressant drug, which I tend not anti-depressant drug, which I tend not to be a drug person, but it was bad to be a drug person, but it was bad to be a drug person, but it was bad enough for long enough that that was the enough for long enough that that was the enough for long enough that that was the final final final it was the it was the last thing I was it was the it was the last thing I was it was the it was the last thing I was seeing a different therapist, probably a seeing a different therapist, probably a seeing a different therapist, probably a therapist or a healer, at least therapist or a healer, at least therapist or a healer, at least [clears throat] one, 5 days a week. And [clears throat] one, 5 days a week. And [clears throat] one, 5 days a week. And every time I would wake up and go and every time I would wake up and go and every time I would wake up and go and just thinking, maybe today it's going to just thinking, maybe today it's going to just thinking, maybe today it's going to be better. Maybe today it's going to be be better. Maybe today it's going to be be better. Maybe today it's going to be better. And it wasn't better.

better. And it wasn't better. better. And it wasn't better. It was really a tough time. It was really a tough time. It was really a tough time. >> What was what was going on under the >> What was what was going on under the >> What was what was going on under the surface of this? Cuz it cuz on the surface of this? Cuz it cuz on the surface of this? Cuz it cuz on the surface one would say Rick got a surface one would say Rick got a surface one would say Rick got a professional rejection and it resulted professional rejection and it resulted professional rejection and it resulted in him saying that he thought he was in him saying that he thought he was in him saying that he thought he was dying. That's what we see on the dying. That's what we see on the dying. That's what we see on the surface. surface. surface. >> Well, it was totally un it all was >> Well, it was totally un it all was >> Well, it was totally un it all was happening on the unconscious level. happening on the unconscious level. happening on the unconscious level. Couldn't sleep, Couldn't sleep, Couldn't sleep, >> was nauseous all the time. Didn't want >> was nauseous all the time. Didn't want >> was nauseous all the time. Didn't want to get out of bed. It was like it it was to get out of bed. It was like it it was to get out of bed. It was like it it was a I felt it in a physical way and didn't a I felt it in a physical way and didn't a I felt it in a physical way and didn't want to do anything. want to do anything. want to do anything. >> What What is this? What What was that? >> What What is this? What What was that? >> What What is this? What What was that? >> Well, I've heard it described as like >> Well, I've heard it described as like >> Well, I've heard it described as like being shot with a poison arrow in a in a being shot with a poison arrow in a in a being shot with a poison arrow in a in a philosophical philosophical philosophical or a psychological way. I was shot with or a psychological way. I was shot with or a psychological way. I was shot with a poison arrow. a poison arrow. a poison arrow. >> Cuz I've I've looked at your um your >> Cuz I've I've looked at your um your >> Cuz I've I've looked at your um your earliest [clears throat] years. I've earliest [clears throat] years. I've earliest [clears throat] years. I've looked at, you know, two wonderful looked at, you know, two wonderful looked at, you know, two wonderful people there. people there. people there. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Your mom and your dad. >> Your mom and your dad. >> Your mom and your dad. >> Yes. Um, and sometimes, you know, when I >> Yes. Um, and sometimes, you know, when I >> Yes. Um, and sometimes, you know, when I interview people that are anomalous in interview people that are anomalous in interview people that are anomalous in some way, I find that their upbringing some way, I find that their upbringing some way, I find that their upbringing had some sort of trauma and they they had some sort of trauma and they they had some sort of trauma and they they had a chip on their shoulder. But with had a chip on their shoulder. But with had a chip on their shoulder. But with you, I had very much the opposite that you, I had very much the opposite that you, I had very much the opposite that you had two parents that really, really you had two parents that really, really you had two parents that really, really loved you, loved you, loved you, >> really loved me, could do no wrong. But >> really loved me, could do no wrong. But >> really loved me, could do no wrong. But that was part of what it was. It's like that was part of what it was. It's like that was part of what it was. It's like I had been raised I had been raised I had been raised believing I could do no wrong.

believing I could do no wrong. believing I could do no wrong. And then in the real world making music, And then in the real world making music, And then in the real world making music, the success showed that I could do no the success showed that I could do no the success showed that I could do no wrong until someone decided, you know wrong until someone decided, you know wrong until someone decided, you know what? I don't like I don't like what what? I don't like I don't like what what? I don't like I don't like what you're doing. you're doing. you're doing. So, I just had no I just didn't have So, I just had no I just didn't have So, I just had no I just didn't have context for it, no way to deal with it. context for it, no way to deal with it. context for it, no way to deal with it. Sounds like a horrific season of your Sounds like a horrific season of your Sounds like a horrific season of your life. life. life. >> Yeah. Would you if there was um if there >> Yeah. Would you if there was um if there >> Yeah. Would you if there was um if there was a button on the table now that would was a button on the table now that would was a button on the table now that would allow you to erase it, would you press allow you to erase it, would you press allow you to erase it, would you press it? I would not. it? I would not. it? I would not. >> Why? Um >> Why? Um >> Why? Um I feel like every event that I've had in I feel like every event that I've had in I feel like every event that I've had in my life, positive and negative, has my life, positive and negative, has my life, positive and negative, has brought me to where I am now. And brought me to where I am now. And brought me to where I am now. And I wouldn't want to change a thing. I I wouldn't want to change a thing. I I wouldn't want to change a thing. I wouldn't want to change wouldn't want to change wouldn't want to change anything. anything. anything. >> What did it give you? >> What did it give you? >> What did it give you? >> It gave me a different perspective. >> It gave me a different perspective. >> It gave me a different perspective. Again, I think it it brought me down to Again, I think it it brought me down to Again, I think it it brought me down to a more realistic view of the world. a more realistic view of the world. a more realistic view of the world. Still one who believes in magic and that Still one who believes in magic and that Still one who believes in magic and that the impossible is possible on a daily the impossible is possible on a daily the impossible is possible on a daily basis. But but before I might have felt basis. But but before I might have felt basis. But but before I might have felt more like Superman and I don't feel like more like Superman and I don't feel like more like Superman and I don't feel like Superman anymore.

Superman anymore. Superman anymore. >> What do you feel like? >> What do you feel like? >> What do you feel like? >> Uh tired. >> Uh tired. >> Uh tired. >> Tired. [laughter] I am, you know, as as creatives. I want I am, you know, as as creatives. I want to go back to this question I was asking to go back to this question I was asking to go back to this question I was asking you earlier on about the similarities you earlier on about the similarities you earlier on about the similarities you see in these great artists. I heard you see in these great artists. I heard you see in these great artists. I heard on one end conviction and then I also on one end conviction and then I also on one end conviction and then I also had humility which kind of seemed like had humility which kind of seemed like had humility which kind of seemed like opposing forces. Is there anything else opposing forces. Is there anything else opposing forces. Is there anything else that you see in the similarities between that you see in the similarities between that you see in the similarities between the Jay-Z's, the Kanye's, the list of the Jay-Z's, the Kanye's, the list of the Jay-Z's, the Kanye's, the list of people that you worked with is endless? people that you worked with is endless? people that you worked with is endless? >> It usually has to do with a point of >> It usually has to do with a point of >> It usually has to do with a point of view. Seeing the world in a way that view. Seeing the world in a way that view. Seeing the world in a way that other people don't see. Now, maybe other people don't see. Now, maybe other people don't see. Now, maybe something that everybody sees, but no something that everybody sees, but no something that everybody sees, but no one has pointed out before. one has pointed out before. one has pointed out before. They notice the world in a different They notice the world in a different They notice the world in a different way. It's what a great comedian does. way. It's what a great comedian does. way. It's what a great comedian does. Great comedian says something and you Great comedian says something and you Great comedian says something and you laugh at it because you relate to what laugh at it because you relate to what laugh at it because you relate to what he's saying. It's like, of course, it's he's saying. It's like, of course, it's he's saying. It's like, of course, it's so funny. It's so ridiculous. That's so funny. It's so ridiculous. That's so funny. It's so ridiculous. That's what we do. what we do. what we do. >> It's [clears throat] the same. It's it's >> It's [clears throat] the same. It's it's >> It's [clears throat] the same. It's it's seeing another layer of what's possible. seeing another layer of what's possible. seeing another layer of what's possible. Understanding the world on a deeper Understanding the world on a deeper Understanding the world on a deeper level than we think we see it. And with level than we think we see it. And with level than we think we see it. And with art, we get to experience all these art, we get to experience all these art, we get to experience all these emotions emotions emotions that are happening to someone else, but that are happening to someone else, but that are happening to someone else, but because we're humans, they resonate and because we're humans, they resonate and because we're humans, they resonate and we get to feel. You can hear a a song of we get to feel. You can hear a a song of we get to feel. You can hear a a song of heartbreak. And you don't even have to heartbreak. And you don't even have to heartbreak. And you don't even have to be heartbroken, but you feel you can be heartbroken, but you feel you can be heartbroken, but you feel you can feel it. You can see a movie that can feel it. You can see a movie that can feel it. You can see a movie that can really impact your life. And art has really impact your life. And art has really impact your life. And art has this incredible ability to um widen our

this incredible ability to um widen our this incredible ability to um widen our perspective and see things from perspective and see things from perspective and see things from different angles that we couldn't see different angles that we couldn't see different angles that we couldn't see before. before. before. >> Do great artists work hard? >> Do great artists work hard? >> Do great artists work hard? >> Very hard. And what does that mean? >> Very hard. And what does that mean? >> Very hard. And what does that mean? >> From the outside, you'd think >> From the outside, you'd think >> From the outside, you'd think you check into the recording studio and you check into the recording studio and you check into the recording studio and make something and put it out and then make something and put it out and then make something and put it out and then you go on tour and everybody screams. you go on tour and everybody screams. you go on tour and everybody screams. It's a grueling job. Everything about it It's a grueling job. Everything about it It's a grueling job. Everything about it is hard. It's wildly competitive, not is hard. It's wildly competitive, not is hard. It's wildly competitive, not because you're competing with other because you're competing with other because you're competing with other people, but because a lot of people are people, but because a lot of people are people, but because a lot of people are trying to do it. And and you can be trying to do it. And and you can be trying to do it. And and you can be tremendously talented, but if you don't tremendously talented, but if you don't tremendously talented, but if you don't have the work ethic to go with it, have the work ethic to go with it, have the work ethic to go with it, it's unlikely that anyone will ever hear it's unlikely that anyone will ever hear it's unlikely that anyone will ever hear what you do. So, it's a this combination what you do. So, it's a this combination what you do. So, it's a this combination of really diligent work ethic doing of really diligent work ethic doing of really diligent work ethic doing whatever it takes and whatever it takes and whatever it takes and some some some interesting perspective, an interesting interesting perspective, an interesting interesting perspective, an interesting point of view, an interesting view on point of view, an interesting view on point of view, an interesting view on the world that someone else looks at and the world that someone else looks at and the world that someone else looks at and thinks, hm, I never saw it that way thinks, hm, I never saw it that way thinks, hm, I never saw it that way before. Is there a way that you know to before. Is there a way that you know to before. Is there a way that you know to make my perspective on the world more make my perspective on the world more make my perspective on the world more interesting?

interesting? interesting? >> It sounds like you spend a lot of time >> It sounds like you spend a lot of time >> It sounds like you spend a lot of time looking at business and self-help looking at business and self-help looking at business and self-help material. material. material. And I would say maybe And I would say maybe And I would say maybe look outside look at the great things look outside look at the great things look outside look at the great things outside of that area and see how they outside of that area and see how they outside of that area and see how they rhyme or how they resonate or how they rhyme or how they resonate or how they rhyme or how they resonate or how they relate. Often we get great ideas from relate. Often we get great ideas from relate. Often we get great ideas from something having nothing to do with what something having nothing to do with what something having nothing to do with what we're actually interested in. we're actually interested in. we're actually interested in. >> We'll see some new thing. I would say >> We'll see some new thing. I would say >> We'll see some new thing. I would say start going to museums. You know, go to start going to museums. You know, go to start going to museums. You know, go to museums, look at the art, take the museums, look at the art, take the museums, look at the art, take the walking tour with the headphones, listen walking tour with the headphones, listen walking tour with the headphones, listen to the stories, to the stories, to the stories, read the great literature. When I say read the great literature. When I say read the great literature. When I say the great literature, it's not one the great literature, it's not one the great literature, it's not one single list, but if you ask around, single list, but if you ask around, single list, but if you ask around, you'll find out. And if three people you'll find out. And if three people you'll find out. And if three people recommend it, definitely read it. recommend it, definitely read it. recommend it, definitely read it. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] See the great movies. Ever. See the See the great movies. Ever. See the See the great movies. Ever. See the great movies. The, you know, the great movies. The, you know, the great movies. The, you know, the greatest movies of all time. It's funny greatest movies of all time. It's funny greatest movies of all time. It's funny cuz when we're told how to become a good cuz when we're told how to become a good cuz when we're told how to become a good insert occupation, we're told to go insert occupation, we're told to go insert occupation, we're told to go study that occupation. Being a good study that occupation. Being a good study that occupation. Being a good lawyer, go study law. But often times it lawyer, go study law. But often times it lawyer, go study law. But often times it appears to be the case even with someone appears to be the case even with someone appears to be the case even with someone like Steve Jobs that they have these like Steve Jobs that they have these like Steve Jobs that they have these sort of rare things in their skill stack sort of rare things in their skill stack sort of rare things in their skill stack like his love of design and typography.

like his love of design and typography. like his love of design and typography. >> Mhm. No one at university would have >> Mhm. No one at university would have >> Mhm. No one at university would have told him, "Okay, you want to be a great told him, "Okay, you want to be a great told him, "Okay, you want to be a great computer programmer, go do typography computer programmer, go do typography computer programmer, go do typography design." design." design." >> Yeah. Yeah. It's usually >> Yeah. Yeah. It's usually >> Yeah. Yeah. It's usually what makes you good at what you do is what makes you good at what you do is what makes you good at what you do is not that you do it the same as everybody not that you do it the same as everybody not that you do it the same as everybody else. So if everyone is reading the same else. So if everyone is reading the same else. So if everyone is reading the same books, they're going to have the same books, they're going to have the same books, they're going to have the same perspective. perspective. perspective. >> I would go outside. I would also >> I would go outside. I would also >> I would go outside. I would also recommend reading old books as opposed recommend reading old books as opposed recommend reading old books as opposed to new books. Ancient wisdom is the to new books. Ancient wisdom is the to new books. Ancient wisdom is the best. Start very old. best. Start very old. best. Start very old. I mean, I've got some books here. I mean, I've got some books here. I mean, I've got some books here. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Good choices. Good choices. Good choices. >> You're a fan of these books? >> You're a fan of these books? >> You're a fan of these books? >> I love these books. >> I love these books. >> I love these books. >> Why? What did they give you? >> Why? What did they give you? >> Why? What did they give you? >> I first read The Dao when I was I had >> I first read The Dao when I was I had >> I first read The Dao when I was I had just moved to California. It's probably just moved to California. It's probably just moved to California. It's probably 30 years ago. And 30 years ago. And 30 years ago. And I read it and I felt like I read it and I felt like I read it and I felt like this is different than anything I read this is different than anything I read this is different than anything I read before. before. before. It speaks to me on so many levels. And It speaks to me on so many levels. And It speaks to me on so many levels. And then I remember reading it something then I remember reading it something then I remember reading it something like 6 months later and it was an like 6 months later and it was an like 6 months later and it was an entirely different book. And it's the entirely different book. And it's the entirely different book. And it's the kind of book that every time you read it kind of book that every time you read it kind of book that every time you read it at different points in your life, you'll at different points in your life, you'll at different points in your life, you'll read an entirely different book. And read an entirely different book. And read an entirely different book. And this was the inspiration for the way of this was the inspiration for the way of this was the inspiration for the way of code. And the way of code is essentially code. And the way of code is essentially code. And the way of code is essentially an adaptation of the Dao for vibe an adaptation of the Dao for vibe an adaptation of the Dao for vibe coding. Often times books can be coding. Often times books can be coding. Often times books can be summarized into a sort of a lesson. Is summarized into a sort of a lesson. Is summarized into a sort of a lesson. Is there a lesson a central lesson that you there a lesson a central lesson that you there a lesson a central lesson that you got from that book?

got from that book? got from that book? >> Maybe I I would use one sentence like >> Maybe I I would use one sentence like >> Maybe I I would use one sentence like that. The soft overcomes the hard. That that. The soft overcomes the hard. That that. The soft overcomes the hard. That would be a good that would be one things would be a good that would be one things would be a good that would be one things that seem counterintuitive that seem counterintuitive that seem counterintuitive that non-action is often the best that non-action is often the best that non-action is often the best action. Now that seems crazy, action. Now that seems crazy, action. Now that seems crazy, but that really is where it's at. You but that really is where it's at. You but that really is where it's at. You know, there's a story about Napoleon know, there's a story about Napoleon know, there's a story about Napoleon that when someone would come to Napoleon that when someone would come to Napoleon that when someone would come to Napoleon during all the waring stuff that was during all the waring stuff that was during all the waring stuff that was [laughter] going on, they would come [laughter] going on, they would come [laughter] going on, they would come with an emergency. You know, you're the with an emergency. You know, you're the with an emergency. You know, you're the only one who can answer this. only one who can answer this. only one who can answer this. Here's the problem. It's an emergency. Here's the problem. It's an emergency. Here's the problem. It's an emergency. He would always say, "Bring it back to He would always say, "Bring it back to He would always say, "Bring it back to me in two weeks." me in two weeks." me in two weeks." And the idea was And the idea was And the idea was 99% of the problems that need your 99% of the problems that need your 99% of the problems that need your immediate attention in 2 weeks will immediate attention in 2 weeks will immediate attention in 2 weeks will resolve themselves. And if it's still a resolve themselves. And if it's still a resolve themselves. And if it's still a problem in 2 weeks, he'll deal with it. problem in 2 weeks, he'll deal with it. problem in 2 weeks, he'll deal with it. >> Might try that with my fiance. >> Might try that with my fiance. >> Might try that with my fiance. >> See how it goes. [laughter] >> It's an interesting idea though that um >> It's an interesting idea though that um what was that phrase you said? The soft what was that phrase you said? The soft what was that phrase you said? The soft >> the soft overcomes the hard.

>> the soft overcomes the hard. >> the soft overcomes the hard. >> The soft overcomes the hard. >> The soft overcomes the hard. >> The soft overcomes the hard. >> Yeah. That's like the idea of water >> Yeah. That's like the idea of water >> Yeah. That's like the idea of water dripping on a rock that eventually the dripping on a rock that eventually the dripping on a rock that eventually the water will eat through the rock slowly water will eat through the rock slowly water will eat through the rock slowly dripping and the water's soft. The dripping and the water's soft. The dripping and the water's soft. The water's totally water's totally water's totally >> pliable, malleable, soft. >> pliable, malleable, soft. >> pliable, malleable, soft. >> And what about this book? Is there an >> And what about this book? Is there an >> And what about this book? Is there an essence? Well, I like I like Carl Young, essence? Well, I like I like Carl Young, essence? Well, I like I like Carl Young, and this is probably his most mystical and this is probably his most mystical and this is probably his most mystical book, but in general, his ideas of uh book, but in general, his ideas of uh book, but in general, his ideas of uh archetypes and looking into dreams and archetypes and looking into dreams and archetypes and looking into dreams and synchronicity synchronicity synchronicity are beautiful ideas, and I think that are beautiful ideas, and I think that are beautiful ideas, and I think that they're they're they're I think that they're really how the I think that they're really how the I think that they're really how the world works. So, um, world works. So, um, world works. So, um, I find comfort in reading him because I find comfort in reading him because I find comfort in reading him because it's different than what we're it's different than what we're it's different than what we're shown in math and science, shown in math and science, shown in math and science, but maybe closer to how it really is. but maybe closer to how it really is. but maybe closer to how it really is. >> I'm going to have to ask you to >> I'm going to have to ask you to >> I'm going to have to ask you to elaborate, especially on this point of elaborate, especially on this point of elaborate, especially on this point of you saying that synchronicity is you saying that synchronicity is you saying that synchronicity is actually more so how the world works.

actually more so how the world works. actually more so how the world works. >> Yeah, I think we don't know how anything >> Yeah, I think we don't know how anything >> Yeah, I think we don't know how anything really works. really works. really works. I think the world is much bigger and I think the world is much bigger and I think the world is much bigger and more interesting more interesting more interesting than we give it credit for. than we give it credit for. than we give it credit for. And most of the things that we think we And most of the things that we think we And most of the things that we think we understand understand understand maybe are not so accurate. Like the one maybe are not so accurate. Like the one maybe are not so accurate. Like the one of the things about science is that of the things about science is that of the things about science is that science is the understanding of how science is the understanding of how science is the understanding of how things are now until the next scientific things are now until the next scientific things are now until the next scientific breakthrough comes and negates breakthrough comes and negates breakthrough comes and negates everything that was before it. It's like everything that was before it. It's like everything that was before it. It's like this ongoing this ongoing this ongoing interest and I think maybe there's an interest and I think maybe there's an interest and I think maybe there's an inner knowingness like we don't know why inner knowingness like we don't know why inner knowingness like we don't know why you meet somebody and you really want to you meet somebody and you really want to you meet somebody and you really want to spend time with them. I don't think that spend time with them. I don't think that spend time with them. I don't think that science can explain that and you meet science can explain that and you meet science can explain that and you meet someone else and you feel like you know someone else and you feel like you know someone else and you feel like you know what I don't want to be around this what I don't want to be around this what I don't want to be around this person. There's something going on person. There's something going on person. There's something going on energetically here that's not for me. energetically here that's not for me. energetically here that's not for me. I think that that's the kind of wisdom I think that that's the kind of wisdom I think that that's the kind of wisdom that probably has more impact on our that probably has more impact on our that probably has more impact on our lives than anything that you can uh any lives than anything that you can uh any lives than anything that you can uh any data can show us.

data can show us. data can show us. >> I was thinking about how believing what >> I was thinking about how believing what >> I was thinking about how believing what you've just said might change my life. you've just said might change my life. you've just said might change my life. >> Yes, it would. >> Yes, it would. >> Yes, it would. >> In what ways do you think it might >> In what ways do you think it might >> In what ways do you think it might change my life? It's like you would take change my life? It's like you would take change my life? It's like you would take the shackles off of feeling like it has the shackles off of feeling like it has the shackles off of feeling like it has to be this narrow way or thinking well to be this narrow way or thinking well to be this narrow way or thinking well if these numbers look like this then it if these numbers look like this then it if these numbers look like this then it means this and this is what's going to means this and this is what's going to means this and this is what's going to happen when [clears throat] in reality happen when [clears throat] in reality happen when [clears throat] in reality you know many times you've looked at the you know many times you've looked at the you know many times you've looked at the numbers and then acted accordingly and numbers and then acted accordingly and numbers and then acted accordingly and then 3 years later realized hm didn't then 3 years later realized hm didn't then 3 years later realized hm didn't really work out the way I thought really work out the way I thought really work out the way I thought that's the real world like that's one that's the real world like that's one that's the real world like that's one way of looking at things you know the way of looking at things you know the way of looking at things you know the money ball approach is one way. And then money ball approach is one way. And then money ball approach is one way. And then the other way is when you met your wife the other way is when you met your wife the other way is when you met your wife and you felt like I want to be with her. and you felt like I want to be with her. and you felt like I want to be with her. That's different. There weren't any That's different. There weren't any That's different. There weren't any metrics you could use to calculate metrics you could use to calculate metrics you could use to calculate whether that was a good idea or not. whether that was a good idea or not. whether that was a good idea or not. >> It's like an invitation to trust >> It's like an invitation to trust >> It's like an invitation to trust ourselves more as well because you're ourselves more as well because you're ourselves more as well because you're talking about energetic feeling and talking about energetic feeling and talking about energetic feeling and >> and doing things that would make >> and doing things that would make >> and doing things that would make trusting yourself make more sense.

trusting yourself make more sense. trusting yourself make more sense. >> That's the other part of it. It's like >> That's the other part of it. It's like >> That's the other part of it. It's like if you spend so much time not trusting if you spend so much time not trusting if you spend so much time not trusting yourself, yourself, yourself, then that antenna to be able to tell then that antenna to be able to tell then that antenna to be able to tell what's going on might be a little rusty. what's going on might be a little rusty. what's going on might be a little rusty. >> So, [clears throat] anything you can do >> So, [clears throat] anything you can do >> So, [clears throat] anything you can do to start to start to start using the antenna as often as possible using the antenna as often as possible using the antenna as often as possible and letting it dictate you. There was a and letting it dictate you. There was a and letting it dictate you. There was a time when I was surprised by the time when I was surprised by the time when I was surprised by the miracles that I would see and now I'm miracles that I would see and now I'm miracles that I would see and now I'm not surprised. It's still surprising, not surprised. It's still surprising, not surprised. It's still surprising, but it happens enough where it's like, but it happens enough where it's like, but it happens enough where it's like, "Yeah, that's what happens. Look at "Yeah, that's what happens. Look at "Yeah, that's what happens. Look at that. Can't predict it. Can't bet on it. that. Can't predict it. Can't bet on it. that. Can't predict it. Can't bet on it. But when it happens, like it seemed like But when it happens, like it seemed like But when it happens, like it seemed like that's what was going to happen. that's what was going to happen. that's what was going to happen. Happened. Look at that. And do you think there is a higher force And do you think there is a higher force taking actions on our lives or taking actions on our lives or taking actions on our lives or >> I think there's a higher intellig >> I think there's a higher intellig >> I think there's a higher intellig creative intelligence that creative intelligence that creative intelligence that I'll say lives the world like the thing I'll say lives the world like the thing I'll say lives the world like the thing that that that allows plants to grow. There's some allows plants to grow. There's some allows plants to grow. There's some generative force.

generative force. generative force. I don't know that it's like aiming I don't know that it's like aiming I don't know that it's like aiming particularly at you or me, but there's particularly at you or me, but there's particularly at you or me, but there's some energy that like life wants to live some energy that like life wants to live some energy that like life wants to live and you can ride. Same like catching a and you can ride. Same like catching a and you can ride. Same like catching a wave, you know? You can wave, you know? You can wave, you know? You can you can catch the wave. The wave is you can catch the wave. The wave is you can catch the wave. The wave is there. There's a lot of waves beyond the there. There's a lot of waves beyond the there. There's a lot of waves beyond the ones in the ocean ones in the ocean ones in the ocean >> and you can ride those waves. You can't >> and you can ride those waves. You can't >> and you can ride those waves. You can't always see them, but you might be able always see them, but you might be able always see them, but you might be able to feel them. you might be able to to feel them. you might be able to to feel them. you might be able to over time you start to recognize them over time you start to recognize them over time you start to recognize them and for some reason it seems like the and for some reason it seems like the and for some reason it seems like the universe wants us to know about this. universe wants us to know about this. universe wants us to know about this. It's what I talked about paying It's what I talked about paying It's what I talked about paying attention and about the um the way of attention and about the um the way of attention and about the um the way of code like it was a ridiculous thing. It code like it was a ridiculous thing. It code like it was a ridiculous thing. It was indefensible. was indefensible. was indefensible. But I listened to this But I listened to this But I listened to this feeling feeling feeling was coming from a lot of sources. was coming from a lot of sources. was coming from a lot of sources. Didn't make sense to me, Didn't make sense to me, Didn't make sense to me, but it felt like, hm, I'm being asked to but it felt like, hm, I'm being asked to but it felt like, hm, I'm being asked to do something here. What could it be? Let do something here. What could it be? Let do something here. What could it be? Let me try to participate.

me try to participate. me try to participate. >> What I hear from a lot of what you're >> What I hear from a lot of what you're >> What I hear from a lot of what you're saying is um it's making me think about saying is um it's making me think about saying is um it's making me think about how like rationality as an idea, being how like rationality as an idea, being how like rationality as an idea, being rational, rational, rational, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> can be a bit of a curse. I would >> can be a bit of a curse. I would >> can be a bit of a curse. I would consider myself to be quite a rational consider myself to be quite a rational consider myself to be quite a rational person. I would say rationality is person. I would say rationality is person. I would say rationality is overrated. The rational world is very overrated. The rational world is very overrated. The rational world is very small. There's much more there are much small. There's much more there are much small. There's much more there are much more interesting things going on than more interesting things going on than more interesting things going on than the rational world. the rational world. the rational world. Yes, that's what exactly what my fiance Yes, that's what exactly what my fiance Yes, that's what exactly what my fiance would say to me. What she has been would say to me. What she has been would say to me. What she has been saying to me. I [snorts] think I think saying to me. I [snorts] think I think saying to me. I [snorts] think I think we we go together. Funny enough, you're we we go together. Funny enough, you're we we go together. Funny enough, you're talking about plus and minuses because talking about plus and minuses because talking about plus and minuses because she is someone that helps me break she is someone that helps me break she is someone that helps me break outside of rationality. outside of rationality. outside of rationality. >> Yes. And when when she when she speaks >> Yes. And when when she when she speaks >> Yes. And when when she when she speaks to me about these ideas she has about to me about these ideas she has about to me about these ideas she has about these you know bigger ideas she has I these you know bigger ideas she has I these you know bigger ideas she has I always listen very intently although at always listen very intently although at always listen very intently although at some level I am I guess rebuttling them some level I am I guess rebuttling them some level I am I guess rebuttling them >> but do you see how they impact her life? >> but do you see how they impact her life? >> but do you see how they impact her life? Do you see what they do to her? Do you see what they do to her? Do you see what they do to her? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Does it feel like it raises her >> Does it feel like it raises her >> Does it feel like it raises her vibration like vibration like vibration like >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Yeah. It's like there there's >> Yeah. It's like there there's >> Yeah. It's like there there's >> that counts you know the way she feels >> that counts you know the way she feels >> that counts you know the way she feels that counts that counts that counts her vibe. Yeah. [laughter] her vibe. Yeah. [laughter] her vibe. Yeah. [laughter] >> One of the um >> One of the um >> One of the um >> enough for you to want to be around her >> enough for you to want to be around her >> enough for you to want to be around her all the time.

all the time. all the time. >> I feel like I'm Yeah. leeching off that >> I feel like I'm Yeah. leeching off that >> I feel like I'm Yeah. leeching off that vibe to some degree sometimes. vibe to some degree sometimes. vibe to some degree sometimes. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> What you talked about higher >> What you talked about higher >> What you talked about higher intelligence and you talked about uh a intelligence and you talked about uh a intelligence and you talked about uh a generative force which is the perfect generative force which is the perfect generative force which is the perfect segue into the big subject of the moment segue into the big subject of the moment segue into the big subject of the moment which is artificial intelligence. Kind which is artificial intelligence. Kind which is artificial intelligence. Kind of links to what you're saying about of links to what you're saying about of links to what you're saying about vibe coding as well. for the first time vibe coding as well. for the first time vibe coding as well. for the first time ever. I was saying yesterday I I got a ever. I was saying yesterday I I got a ever. I was saying yesterday I I got a message from my f one of my friends who message from my f one of my friends who message from my f one of my friends who isn't involved in technology saying like isn't involved in technology saying like isn't involved in technology saying like I'm concerned. I don't know what this I'm concerned. I don't know what this I'm concerned. I don't know what this technology is. Is it going to take our technology is. Is it going to take our technology is. Is it going to take our jobs? I'm concerned. And that for me was jobs? I'm concerned. And that for me was jobs? I'm concerned. And that for me was the bat signal that that that this is the bat signal that that that this is the bat signal that that that this is really getting down to everyday people. really getting down to everyday people. really getting down to everyday people. This week there was a anthropic This week there was a anthropic This week there was a anthropic researcher um who also worked at a uh researcher um who also worked at a uh researcher um who also worked at a uh chat GBT open AI say he thinks it might chat GBT open AI say he thinks it might chat GBT open AI say he thinks it might be uh the the end of the human race or be uh the the end of the human race or be uh the the end of the human race or at least there's a more than 10% chance at least there's a more than 10% chance at least there's a more than 10% chance of that. of that. of that. AI is a broad subject. Sure. You've got AI is a broad subject. Sure. You've got AI is a broad subject. Sure. You've got lots of thoughts on it. lots of thoughts on it. lots of thoughts on it. >> Yeah, I'd think it's a it's a wildly >> Yeah, I'd think it's a it's a wildly >> Yeah, I'd think it's a it's a wildly powerful tool powerful tool powerful tool and I'm curious to see what it can do. and I'm curious to see what it can do. and I'm curious to see what it can do. Like any powerful tool, it could be Like any powerful tool, it could be Like any powerful tool, it could be really dangerous. It could be used for really dangerous. It could be used for really dangerous. It could be used for bad or it could be used for good.

bad or it could be used for good. bad or it could be used for good. Fire burned down my house. I wouldn't Fire burned down my house. I wouldn't Fire burned down my house. I wouldn't say we should ban fire. Fire cooks our say we should ban fire. Fire cooks our say we should ban fire. Fire cooks our food. Does some good stuff. Heats our food. Does some good stuff. Heats our food. Does some good stuff. Heats our heats our houses. It's one of these heats our houses. It's one of these heats our houses. It's one of these things. It's like the internet changed things. It's like the internet changed things. It's like the internet changed the world. It does some really good the world. It does some really good the world. It does some really good things. Probably does some really bad things. Probably does some really bad things. Probably does some really bad things. things. things. It's very powerful. The printing press It's very powerful. The printing press It's very powerful. The printing press when it came along, the church tried to when it came along, the church tried to when it came along, the church tried to ban the printing press. They didn't want ban the printing press. They didn't want ban the printing press. They didn't want that. They didn't want books to be able that. They didn't want books to be able that. They didn't want books to be able to they didn't want information to be to they didn't want information to be to they didn't want information to be able to be for everybody. Good came from able to be for everybody. Good came from able to be for everybody. Good came from that and probably some bad. that and probably some bad. that and probably some bad. >> Can it be creative? >> Can it be creative? >> Can it be creative? >> I don't know. I'm curious. I I don't >> I don't know. I'm curious. I I don't >> I don't know. I'm curious. I I don't know. I feel like everything we've know. I feel like everything we've know. I feel like everything we've talked about today about what creativity talked about today about what creativity talked about today about what creativity is has to do with point of view. is has to do with point of view. is has to do with point of view. >> And AI doesn't have a point of view. >> And AI doesn't have a point of view. >> And AI doesn't have a point of view. AI is uh AI is uh AI is uh the collected ideas that already exist. the collected ideas that already exist. the collected ideas that already exist. It doesn't have it doesn't see it from a It doesn't have it doesn't see it from a It doesn't have it doesn't see it from a particular angle. And if you ask it the particular angle. And if you ask it the particular angle. And if you ask it the same question same question same question several times or several days in a row, several times or several days in a row, several times or several days in a row, it may give you very different answer it may give you very different answer it may give you very different answer day after day. So it's not like it has day after day. So it's not like it has day after day. So it's not like it has this is how it sees the world.

this is how it sees the world. this is how it sees the world. >> If I asked an AI to make 10 million >> If I asked an AI to make 10 million >> If I asked an AI to make 10 million different tracks, different tracks, different tracks, >> Yeah. Would it theoretically it would at >> Yeah. Would it theoretically it would at >> Yeah. Would it theoretically it would at some point make a hit even though it some point make a hit even though it some point make a hit even though it doesn't have a a point of view per se? doesn't have a a point of view per se? doesn't have a a point of view per se? >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's hard >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's hard >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's hard for me to say what a hit even is, for me to say what a hit even is, for me to say what a hit even is, >> but I would say >> but I would say >> but I would say >> it could make 10,000 tracks and you >> it could make 10,000 tracks and you >> it could make 10,000 tracks and you might like one or two of them or you may might like one or two of them or you may might like one or two of them or you may like 5% of them. You might. And that's like 5% of them. You might. And that's like 5% of them. You might. And that's interesting. And I could see like there interesting. And I could see like there interesting. And I could see like there was a time when we would sample records was a time when we would sample records was a time when we would sample records when we were doing hip-hop records. It when we were doing hip-hop records. It when we were doing hip-hop records. It was called crate digging where you'd was called crate digging where you'd was called crate digging where you'd go to record stores, find old records, go to record stores, find old records, go to record stores, find old records, listen to them all the way through and listen to them all the way through and listen to them all the way through and find one little part. It's like, ah, find one little part. It's like, ah, find one little part. It's like, ah, this little breakbe beat, let's use that this little breakbe beat, let's use that this little breakbe beat, let's use that and make a new song out of it and and and make a new song out of it and and and make a new song out of it and and you change the context, make something you change the context, make something you change the context, make something new. So, if AI was playing music new. So, if AI was playing music new. So, if AI was playing music constantly in the background and then constantly in the background and then constantly in the background and then all of a sudden I heard a little clip, all of a sudden I heard a little clip, all of a sudden I heard a little clip, oh, that's a good sample. We can make oh, that's a good sample. We can make oh, that's a good sample. We can make that into something that into something that into something >> that would be a use. I I I I think the >> that would be a use. I I I I think the >> that would be a use. I I I I think the idea of it doing the end to end of idea of it doing the end to end of idea of it doing the end to end of replacing the artist, I don't think it I replacing the artist, I don't think it I replacing the artist, I don't think it I I I can't imagine it doing that. I'd be I I can't imagine it doing that. I'd be I I can't imagine it doing that. I'd be curious to see if it could, but I think curious to see if it could, but I think curious to see if it could, but I think what we want from an artist has to do what we want from an artist has to do what we want from an artist has to do with point of view. And I see AI maybe with point of view. And I see AI maybe with point of view. And I see AI maybe is a tool that could help the artist and is a tool that could help the artist and is a tool that could help the artist and maybe even help the person who doesn't maybe even help the person who doesn't maybe even help the person who doesn't know they're an artist be an artist. So, know they're an artist be an artist. So, know they're an artist be an artist. So, I can't draw. I can't play any I can't draw. I can't play any I can't draw. I can't play any instruments. I don't have any talent. I instruments. I don't have any talent. I instruments. I don't have any talent. I have no way to express my creativity.

have no way to express my creativity. have no way to express my creativity. But I could talk to the AI and maybe I But I could talk to the AI and maybe I But I could talk to the AI and maybe I could prompt the AI into making could prompt the AI into making could prompt the AI into making something beautiful through iteration something beautiful through iteration something beautiful through iteration and prompting. So maybe more people will and prompting. So maybe more people will and prompting. So maybe more people will get to be creative using AI. And I think get to be creative using AI. And I think get to be creative using AI. And I think that's a beautiful thing. This is such a that's a beautiful thing. This is such a that's a beautiful thing. This is such a recurring debate. You'll hear it recurring debate. You'll hear it recurring debate. You'll hear it probably on every panel everywhere at probably on every panel everywhere at probably on every panel everywhere at the moment, which is can AI be creative? the moment, which is can AI be creative? the moment, which is can AI be creative? And I've thought a lot about like I've And I've thought a lot about like I've And I've thought a lot about like I've sort of tried to interrogate the sort of tried to interrogate the sort of tried to interrogate the question itself because you first sort question itself because you first sort question itself because you first sort of need to define what creativity is and of need to define what creativity is and of need to define what creativity is and then I think what people are saying is then I think what people are saying is then I think what people are saying is when they think of creativity they when they think of creativity they when they think of creativity they actually think of good creativity that actually think of good creativity that actually think of good creativity that sold well or that was number one. So sold well or that was number one. So sold well or that was number one. So often times I remember one of my friends often times I remember one of my friends often times I remember one of my friends was saying to me the other day um I was saying to me the other day um I was saying to me the other day um I don't think AI could ever make and then don't think AI could ever make and then don't think AI could ever make and then he like named a great song. he like named a great song. he like named a great song. >> AI could never make that. And even when >> AI could never make that. And even when >> AI could never make that. And even when I look at that great song, what's making I look at that great song, what's making I look at that great song, what's making him think it was great creativity in in him think it was great creativity in in him think it was great creativity in in hindsight was actually as you use the hindsight was actually as you use the hindsight was actually as you use the word end to end an end to end process of word end to end an end to end process of word end to end an end to end process of having the meeting with MTV, building up having the meeting with MTV, building up having the meeting with MTV, building up distribution and reputation. Maybe distribution and reputation. Maybe distribution and reputation. Maybe people being following that artist's people being following that artist's people being following that artist's life and therefore that being part of life and therefore that being part of life and therefore that being part of the point of view. People have followed the point of view. People have followed the point of view. People have followed Olivia Dean. So when she makes music, Olivia Dean. So when she makes music, Olivia Dean. So when she makes music, something else comes with that. A story something else comes with that. A story something else comes with that. A story comes with that. Olivia Dean signed to a comes with that. Olivia Dean signed to a comes with that. Olivia Dean signed to a record label. So maybe there's some record label. So maybe there's some record label. So maybe there's some support there that's done. And in support there that's done. And in support there that's done. And in hindsight we go amazing creativity. But hindsight we go amazing creativity. But hindsight we go amazing creativity. But what we're actually saying is there was what we're actually saying is there was what we're actually saying is there was this long process which resulted in this this long process which resulted in this this long process which resulted in this me experiencing this thing and so I me experiencing this thing and so I me experiencing this thing and so I consider it creative. Now AI might like consider it creative. Now AI might like consider it creative. Now AI might like I was trying to think like okay AI could I was trying to think like okay AI could I was trying to think like okay AI could help with be the tool that you describe.

help with be the tool that you describe. help with be the tool that you describe. >> But isn't the whole process part of what >> But isn't the whole process part of what >> But isn't the whole process part of what we look back on and say that was great we look back on and say that was great we look back on and say that was great creativity. creativity. creativity. I would say the whole process. I I also I would say the whole process. I I also I would say the whole process. I I also think it's even beyond the process. Like think it's even beyond the process. Like think it's even beyond the process. Like the things that we make the things that we make the things that we make are the reminders that we're creative. are the reminders that we're creative. are the reminders that we're creative. They're just the output. The real They're just the output. The real They're just the output. The real creativity is creativity is creativity is the idea that allows this thing to be the idea that allows this thing to be the idea that allows this thing to be made. If you look at Alfred Hitchcock, made. If you look at Alfred Hitchcock, made. If you look at Alfred Hitchcock, his movies, he works out his whole movie his movies, he works out his whole movie his movies, he works out his whole movie in advance and he storyboards the whole in advance and he storyboards the whole in advance and he storyboards the whole movie. And if you look at the movie. And if you look at the movie. And if you look at the storyboard, he doesn't even really need storyboard, he doesn't even really need storyboard, he doesn't even really need to make the movie. The whole thing is to make the movie. The whole thing is to make the movie. The whole thing is there just in drawings. Exactly. Frame there just in drawings. Exactly. Frame there just in drawings. Exactly. Frame by frame, the whole movie is there. Wes by frame, the whole movie is there. Wes by frame, the whole movie is there. Wes Anderson makes his movie frame by frame Anderson makes his movie frame by frame Anderson makes his movie frame by frame in advance before there are actors. So in advance before there are actors. So in advance before there are actors. So he could watch the whole movie. he could watch the whole movie. he could watch the whole movie. um like a a mock a mockup of the movie um like a a mock a mockup of the movie um like a a mock a mockup of the movie and then with the actors is where he and then with the actors is where he and then with the actors is where he executes the idea. And I think AI is a executes the idea. And I think AI is a executes the idea. And I think AI is a could be a great tool to like assist in could be a great tool to like assist in could be a great tool to like assist in this mocking up, this mocking up, this mocking up, >> but it's the prompt. The prompt is where >> but it's the prompt. The prompt is where >> but it's the prompt. The prompt is where the creativity is.

the creativity is. the creativity is. The prompt is what Wes is using and what The prompt is what Wes is using and what The prompt is what Wes is using and what Alfred Hitchcock is using to tell the Alfred Hitchcock is using to tell the Alfred Hitchcock is using to tell the the artist what to draw in each frame. the artist what to draw in each frame. the artist what to draw in each frame. The creativity is there. It's not in the The creativity is there. It's not in the The creativity is there. It's not in the drawing. It's not in the finished movie. drawing. It's not in the finished movie. drawing. It's not in the finished movie. It's in the prompt. Mhm. It's in the prompt. Mhm. It's in the prompt. Mhm. >> So the I feel like >> So the I feel like >> So the I feel like now using prompts anyone can prompt and now using prompts anyone can prompt and now using prompts anyone can prompt and you can get better at prompting you can get better at prompting you can get better at prompting through experimentation. through experimentation. through experimentation. So someone who thinks of themselves as So someone who thinks of themselves as So someone who thinks of themselves as not not creative, the idea of learning not not creative, the idea of learning not not creative, the idea of learning how to prompt, it's pretty easy. It's really like the barrier of entry is It's really like the barrier of entry is very low [laughter] and I think that's a very low [laughter] and I think that's a very low [laughter] and I think that's a good thing. In a world where the barrier of entry is In a world where the barrier of entry is so low to creating, so low to creating, so low to creating, what what becomes the distinction? What what what becomes the distinction? What what what becomes the distinction? What makes a great artist from a a not so makes a great artist from a a not so makes a great artist from a a not so great great artist?

great great artist? great great artist? >> Well, the same thing now. It's the same >> Well, the same thing now. It's the same >> Well, the same thing now. It's the same thing as now. Like the the reason you thing as now. Like the the reason you thing as now. Like the the reason you love the artist you love is they make love the artist you love is they make love the artist you love is they make something that changes your life, moves something that changes your life, moves something that changes your life, moves you. You want to listen to it a million you. You want to listen to it a million you. You want to listen to it a million times. You want to see the movie over times. You want to see the movie over times. You want to see the movie over and over again. You want to read you and over again. You want to read you and over again. You want to read you want to read their books. want to read their books. want to read their books. I don't know if it I don't know if it I don't know if it if the AI itself could write the book if the AI itself could write the book if the AI itself could write the book that you want to read over and over that you want to read over and over that you want to read over and over again. I don't know if that's a problem. again. I don't know if that's a problem. again. I don't know if that's a problem. If that happens, I don't see any If that happens, I don't see any If that happens, I don't see any indication that that's going to happen. indication that that's going to happen. indication that that's going to happen. >> But more good art doesn't seem like a >> But more good art doesn't seem like a >> But more good art doesn't seem like a bad thing. bad thing. bad thing. me and uh my uh business partner out me and uh my uh business partner out me and uh my uh business partner out there, Georgia Gibson. We were on there, Georgia Gibson. We were on there, Georgia Gibson. We were on Spotify and we um listened to this song. Spotify and we um listened to this song. Spotify and we um listened to this song. We really liked it. And about 2 months We really liked it. And about 2 months We really liked it. And about 2 months later, I figured out it was AI. The only later, I figured out it was AI. The only later, I figured out it was AI. The only reason I figured out it was AI was reason I figured out it was AI was reason I figured out it was AI was because I went to get more from the because I went to get more from the because I went to get more from the artist. As I clicked through, I realized artist. As I clicked through, I realized artist. As I clicked through, I realized it was AI. And then the other thing that it was AI. And then the other thing that it was AI. And then the other thing that happened around the time is there was happened around the time is there was happened around the time is there was these two songs from this uh Spotify these two songs from this uh Spotify these two songs from this uh Spotify artist, I guess, and one of them artist, I guess, and one of them artist, I guess, and one of them disappeared. And so I that's when I went disappeared. And so I that's when I went disappeared. And so I that's when I went on Google and was looking like what what on Google and was looking like what what on Google and was looking like what what happened to that song and it turns out happened to that song and it turns out happened to that song and it turns out it was an AI artist. Something it was an AI artist. Something it was an AI artist. Something interesting happened when I realized I interesting happened when I realized I interesting happened when I realized I was listening to an AI song.

was listening to an AI song. was listening to an AI song. >> What happened? >> What happened? >> What happened? >> I didn't like it as much anymore. >> I didn't like it as much anymore. >> I didn't like it as much anymore. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. And so when I think about again And so when I think about again And so when I think about again creativity, I wonder if there is a sort creativity, I wonder if there is a sort creativity, I wonder if there is a sort of an irreplaceably human element of an irreplaceably human element of an irreplaceably human element because it resonated with me because because it resonated with me because because it resonated with me because there was this story that it came from there was this story that it came from there was this story that it came from this woman who was singing and she was this woman who was singing and she was this woman who was singing and she was talking about this subject and it meant talking about this subject and it meant talking about this subject and it meant something to her and then when I found something to her and then when I found something to her and then when I found out it was none of that it the song lost out it was none of that it the song lost out it was none of that it the song lost something. If you think about Andy something. If you think about Andy something. If you think about Andy Warhol's art, Warhol's art, Warhol's art, Andy Warhol started as a commercial um Andy Warhol started as a commercial um Andy Warhol started as a commercial um illustrator. He would draw shoes for illustrator. He would draw shoes for illustrator. He would draw shoes for advertising, let's say. And then he came advertising, let's say. And then he came advertising, let's say. And then he came up with what essentially now what we up with what essentially now what we up with what essentially now what we call pop art. And pop art was call pop art. And pop art was call pop art. And pop art was a brillow box or a soup a Campbell soup a brillow box or a soup a Campbell soup a brillow box or a soup a Campbell soup can. And maybe the first Campbell soup can. And maybe the first Campbell soup can. And maybe the first Campbell soup cans, he drew them and painted them. cans, he drew them and painted them. cans, he drew them and painted them. Those were the first ones. But then over Those were the first ones. But then over Those were the first ones. But then over time he did a series of images that were time he did a series of images that were time he did a series of images that were screen printed. So like Elvis, Marilyn screen printed. So like Elvis, Marilyn screen printed. So like Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, really famous the most famous Monroe, really famous the most famous Monroe, really famous the most famous Andy Warhol images. He never painted Andy Warhol images. He never painted Andy Warhol images. He never painted anything. He never touched anything.

anything. He never touched anything. anything. He never touched anything. He said, "We're going to use this shot He said, "We're going to use this shot He said, "We're going to use this shot of of Marilyn and we're going to treat of of Marilyn and we're going to treat of of Marilyn and we're going to treat it in this way." and he prompted the the it in this way." and he prompted the the it in this way." and he prompted the the people in the studio to screen print people in the studio to screen print people in the studio to screen print these things. these things. these things. And they're not less Andy Warhol. And they're not less Andy Warhol. And they're not less Andy Warhol. The art's always in the idiation. That's The art's always in the idiation. That's The art's always in the idiation. That's where the art is. It's not who put the where the art is. It's not who put the where the art is. It's not who put the paint on the canvas. paint on the canvas. paint on the canvas. There was a time even even going back to There was a time even even going back to There was a time even even going back to the um the Renaissance so many of the the um the Renaissance so many of the the um the Renaissance so many of the painters had studios and you'd see painters had studios and you'd see painters had studios and you'd see Rembrandt and Rembrandt might have Rembrandt and Rembrandt might have Rembrandt and Rembrandt might have painted painted painted 70% he might have painted 30% of that 70% he might have painted 30% of that 70% he might have painted 30% of that painting but it was his vision for the painting but it was his vision for the painting but it was his vision for the painting and he would have the guys in painting and he would have the guys in painting and he would have the guys in the studio you guys do this not sure if the studio you guys do this not sure if the studio you guys do this not sure if Rembrandt's the best example of this but Rembrandt's the best example of this but Rembrandt's the best example of this but could be that it was it's a normal thing could be that it was it's a normal thing could be that it was it's a normal thing that artists who had studios would have that artists who had studios would have that artists who had studios would have other people, other painters, disciples other people, other painters, disciples other people, other painters, disciples who would do a lot of the work.

who would do a lot of the work. who would do a lot of the work. Happens now in the studio. So many Happens now in the studio. So many Happens now in the studio. So many records, you'll hear a it can be a band, records, you'll hear a it can be a band, records, you'll hear a it can be a band, but then the band isn't playing on the but then the band isn't playing on the but then the band isn't playing on the record. Studio musicians are playing on record. Studio musicians are playing on record. Studio musicians are playing on the record. the record. the record. It's normal. It's just part of the It's normal. It's just part of the It's normal. It's just part of the process, but doesn't make it less good. process, but doesn't make it less good. process, but doesn't make it less good. It's just a different thing. It's fine. It's the idiation is where it comes It's the idiation is where it comes from. And I don't know that the AI's from. And I don't know that the AI's from. And I don't know that the AI's idiation idiation idiation is interesting to anyone. We'll see. is interesting to anyone. We'll see. is interesting to anyone. We'll see. >> I always think with like the F1, um, if >> I always think with like the F1, um, if >> I always think with like the F1, um, if they removed Lewis Hamilton from the they removed Lewis Hamilton from the they removed Lewis Hamilton from the car, I wouldn't watch the F1 anymore, car, I wouldn't watch the F1 anymore, car, I wouldn't watch the F1 anymore, even if the cars drove faster and beat even if the cars drove faster and beat even if the cars drove faster and beat their times because there's something in their times because there's something in their times because there's something in me watching a human being experience me watching a human being experience me watching a human being experience those emotions of competition and anger. those emotions of competition and anger. those emotions of competition and anger. And you know, you can kind of see by the And you know, you can kind of see by the And you know, you can kind of see by the way they're driving how they're feeling. way they're driving how they're feeling. way they're driving how they're feeling. And you can relate to that. I felt like And you can relate to that. I felt like And you can relate to that. I felt like that in work once. that in work once. that in work once. >> Yeah. Yeah. It does seem less >> Yeah. Yeah. It does seem less >> Yeah. Yeah. It does seem less interesting if it was just a car, interesting if it was just a car, interesting if it was just a car, automated car doing it. automated car doing it. automated car doing it. >> So what what has been removed >> So what what has been removed >> So what what has been removed is kind of I guess what I experienced is kind of I guess what I experienced is kind of I guess what I experienced with that Spotify song I was talking with that Spotify song I was talking with that Spotify song I was talking about is like res human relatability and about is like res human relatability and about is like res human relatability and resonance and me too and connection.

resonance and me too and connection. resonance and me too and connection. >> But it's interesting that you liked it >> But it's interesting that you liked it >> But it's interesting that you liked it before you knew. before you knew. before you knew. >> And that's interest, you know, that's >> And that's interest, you know, that's >> And that's interest, you know, that's interesting to me. And I wonder, interesting to me. And I wonder, interesting to me. And I wonder, would I would I would I be against something because of the way be against something because of the way be against something because of the way it was made? This doesn't make sense to it was made? This doesn't make sense to it was made? This doesn't make sense to me. You either like it or you don't. >> It's We're living in interesting times. >> It's We're living in interesting times. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> You used the word miracles earlier on, >> You used the word miracles earlier on, >> You used the word miracles earlier on, which I found to be an interesting word. which I found to be an interesting word. which I found to be an interesting word. >> Yeah. And I wondered if you had >> Yeah. And I wondered if you had >> Yeah. And I wondered if you had experienced miracles through the experienced miracles through the experienced miracles through the creative process of working with great creative process of working with great creative process of working with great artists artists artists >> all the time. >> all the time. >> all the time. >> What are those? Is there a miracle you >> What are those? Is there a miracle you >> What are those? Is there a miracle you could share? could share? could share? >> Uh there's a a brother song called um >> Uh there's a a brother song called um >> Uh there's a a brother song called um No Hard Feelings and they were playing No Hard Feelings and they were playing No Hard Feelings and they were playing it in the studio and it was okay. It was it in the studio and it was okay. It was it in the studio and it was okay. It was fine. Wasn't great. They played it a few fine. Wasn't great. They played it a few fine. Wasn't great. They played it a few times and then finally they played it times and then finally they played it times and then finally they played it one time and again I don't even remember one time and again I don't even remember one time and again I don't even remember if we even said do anything different.

if we even said do anything different. if we even said do anything different. It might have been just try it again. It might have been just try it again. It might have been just try it again. You know, that could have been that You know, that could have been that You know, that could have been that nothing changed. nothing changed. nothing changed. And for some reason, And for some reason, And for some reason, while they were playing it, it was like while they were playing it, it was like while they were playing it, it was like time stopped time stopped time stopped and this incredible thing happened. I and this incredible thing happened. I and this incredible thing happened. I don't know why. No one involved knew why don't know why. No one involved knew why don't know why. No one involved knew why or how. or how. or how. But after I I remember about a minute But after I I remember about a minute But after I I remember about a minute into the song, I remember thinking into the song, I remember thinking into the song, I remember thinking it there's this feeling it's scary it there's this feeling it's scary it there's this feeling it's scary because it's really good. We don't know because it's really good. We don't know because it's really good. We don't know how or why. how or why. how or why. I hope they can get to the end of the I hope they can get to the end of the I hope they can get to the end of the song because if they don't get to the song because if they don't get to the song because if they don't get to the end of the song, we don't have it and we end of the song, we don't have it and we end of the song, we don't have it and we maybe we can never get back to this. maybe we can never get back to this. maybe we can never get back to this. That's what it's like. It's like so as That's what it's like. It's like so as That's what it's like. It's like so as soon as you realize in the process if soon as you realize in the process if soon as you realize in the process if you happen to realize okay something you happen to realize okay something you happen to realize okay something shifted something magic is happening now shifted something magic is happening now shifted something magic is happening now sometimes you don't know it right away sometimes you don't know it right away sometimes you don't know it right away sometimes you know it after I've made an sometimes you know it after I've made an sometimes you know it after I've made an album with Neil Young where we recorded album with Neil Young where we recorded album with Neil Young where we recorded for a week for a week for a week it was not good it was not good it was not good the band it sounded like the band not the band it sounded like the band not the band it sounded like the band not only couldn't play the songs but would only couldn't play the songs but would only couldn't play the songs but would never be able to play the songs that was never be able to play the songs that was never be able to play the songs that was a feeling in the first week.

a feeling in the first week. a feeling in the first week. And at the end of the first week, Neil And at the end of the first week, Neil And at the end of the first week, Neil said to me after he's like, "Don't said to me after he's like, "Don't said to me after he's like, "Don't worry, next week's going to be better. worry, next week's going to be better. worry, next week's going to be better. We're going to they're going to be able We're going to they're going to be able We're going to they're going to be able to do it." It's like, "Okay, okay." to do it." It's like, "Okay, okay." to do it." It's like, "Okay, okay." Like, I'm Like, I'm Like, I'm nothing showed me that, but let's go. I nothing showed me that, but let's go. I nothing showed me that, but let's go. I I'll listen. And then the next week, I'll listen. And then the next week, I'll listen. And then the next week, Neil said to Ralph, the drummer, he's Neil said to Ralph, the drummer, he's Neil said to Ralph, the drummer, he's like, "Uh, okay, let's play whatever the like, "Uh, okay, let's play whatever the like, "Uh, okay, let's play whatever the third song again." And Ralph's like, third song again." And Ralph's like, third song again." And Ralph's like, "Well, we already did that last week." "Well, we already did that last week." "Well, we already did that last week." And he was like, "Oh, let's maybe we And he was like, "Oh, let's maybe we And he was like, "Oh, let's maybe we could beat it." And R's like, "No, I could beat it." And R's like, "No, I could beat it." And R's like, "No, I really think we got it." really think we got it." really think we got it." And now last week we thought not only And now last week we thought not only And now last week we thought not only did we not get it, but that we may never did we not get it, but that we may never did we not get it, but that we may never get it. And then we try playing it get it. And then we try playing it get it. And then we try playing it again. It is no better. And then Ralph again. It is no better. And then Ralph again. It is no better. And then Ralph says, "Put back. Put on the one from says, "Put back. Put on the one from says, "Put back. Put on the one from last week." And he puts on the one from last week." And he puts on the one from last week." And he puts on the one from last week. And he says, "Well, turn down last week. And he says, "Well, turn down last week. And he says, "Well, turn down the um turn down the bass a little bit. the um turn down the bass a little bit. the um turn down the bass a little bit. Maybe turn the piano up." And we listen Maybe turn the piano up." And we listen Maybe turn the piano up." And we listen to it again. And to it again. And to it again. And it seemed like it still had problems, it seemed like it still had problems, it seemed like it still had problems, but the magic was there but the magic was there but the magic was there kind of a it had a lot of mistakes, but kind of a it had a lot of mistakes, but kind of a it had a lot of mistakes, but forgetting the mistakes, the feeling, forgetting the mistakes, the feeling, forgetting the mistakes, the feeling, the feeling was there. And then our job the feeling was there. And then our job the feeling was there. And then our job was just like was just like was just like doing little bits of repairs here and doing little bits of repairs here and doing little bits of repairs here and there or a little ducking a sound or there or a little ducking a sound or there or a little ducking a sound or featuring a sound or adding another featuring a sound or adding another featuring a sound or adding another vocal or doing little things and turned

vocal or doing little things and turned vocal or doing little things and turned almost the whole album turned out to be almost the whole album turned out to be almost the whole album turned out to be recorded that first week when it seemed recorded that first week when it seemed recorded that first week when it seemed like it would never happen. like it would never happen. like it would never happen. So that would that felt like a miracle. So that would that felt like a miracle. So that would that felt like a miracle. The question that's front of mind when The question that's front of mind when The question that's front of mind when you talk about these moments where great you talk about these moments where great you talk about these moments where great art was created, everybody wants to know art was created, everybody wants to know art was created, everybody wants to know how to make it repeatable. How do we how to make it repeatable. How do we how to make it repeatable. How do we repeat that process? repeat that process? repeat that process? >> Yeah. It's not none of this is >> Yeah. It's not none of this is >> Yeah. It's not none of this is repeatable. Ah, repeatable. Ah, repeatable. Ah, >> no. The thing that's repeatable is you >> no. The thing that's repeatable is you >> no. The thing that's repeatable is you show up and you keep going till it's show up and you keep going till it's show up and you keep going till it's great. Whatever it takes. That's the great. Whatever it takes. That's the great. Whatever it takes. That's the thing. It's like and sometimes you thing. It's like and sometimes you thing. It's like and sometimes you listen back like you'll make a demo or listen back like you'll make a demo or listen back like you'll make a demo or you'll do a little sketch and you think you'll do a little sketch and you think you'll do a little sketch and you think this is this is a great idea. This is this is this is a great idea. This is this is this is a great idea. This is beautiful. Now I'm going to make a big beautiful. Now I'm going to make a big beautiful. Now I'm going to make a big painting. and you work on the painting painting. and you work on the painting painting. and you work on the painting for months and months and months, it for months and months and months, it for months and months and months, it never really comes together. never really comes together. never really comes together. >> But then you look back at that original >> But then you look back at that original >> But then you look back at that original drawing that you made in five minutes drawing that you made in five minutes drawing that you made in five minutes like, you know, that's actually it like, you know, that's actually it like, you know, that's actually it happened on the first album I made with happened on the first album I made with happened on the first album I made with Johnny Cash. We recorded all these songs Johnny Cash. We recorded all these songs Johnny Cash. We recorded all these songs in my living room of him singing and in my living room of him singing and in my living room of him singing and playing guitar. playing guitar. playing guitar. We weren't recording for an album. We We weren't recording for an album. We We weren't recording for an album. We were recording.

were recording. were recording. It was the way that we got to know each It was the way that we got to know each It was the way that we got to know each other. I asked him to play me all of his other. I asked him to play me all of his other. I asked him to play me all of his favorite songs, songs he like remembered favorite songs, songs he like remembered favorite songs, songs he like remembered from growing up. Uh songs that mean a from growing up. Uh songs that mean a from growing up. Uh songs that mean a lot to him. Or I might say, "Can you try lot to him. Or I might say, "Can you try lot to him. Or I might say, "Can you try playing this song? Let's just see what playing this song? Let's just see what playing this song? Let's just see what it sounds like." More like trying to it sounds like." More like trying to it sounds like." More like trying to understand what sounded good when he understand what sounded good when he understand what sounded good when he sang it. We were doing this exploration. sang it. We were doing this exploration. sang it. We were doing this exploration. And we did that with the idea of we're And we did that with the idea of we're And we did that with the idea of we're going to test a hundred songs this way going to test a hundred songs this way going to test a hundred songs this way and then maybe we'll find 10. And the 10 and then maybe we'll find 10. And the 10 and then maybe we'll find 10. And the 10 that we like best, we'll go into the that we like best, we'll go into the that we like best, we'll go into the studio with a band and we'll record studio with a band and we'll record studio with a band and we'll record them. And we did that and recorded with them. And we did that and recorded with them. And we did that and recorded with a great band and it was interesting but a great band and it was interesting but a great band and it was interesting but it wasn't better. And then we did it it wasn't better. And then we did it it wasn't better. And then we did it again with a different band. Same thing again with a different band. Same thing again with a different band. Same thing wasn't better. It's like I guess those wasn't better. It's like I guess those wasn't better. It's like I guess those recordings from the living room which we recordings from the living room which we recordings from the living room which we had no thoughts of ever anybody ever had no thoughts of ever anybody ever had no thoughts of ever anybody ever hearing hearing hearing they have something that the real they have something that the real they have something that the real recordings don't have. recordings don't have. recordings don't have. >> And we ended up putting out those. >> And we ended up putting out those. >> And we ended up putting out those. So, but again that we didn't go into the So, but again that we didn't go into the So, but again that we didn't go into the process to do that. We discovered it process to do that. We discovered it process to do that. We discovered it through the process. And sometimes it's through the process. And sometimes it's through the process. And sometimes it's the opposite way where you make you have the opposite way where you make you have the opposite way where you make you have a clear vision of what it's going to be a clear vision of what it's going to be a clear vision of what it's going to be and you do it all the way and it it and you do it all the way and it it and you do it all the way and it it tells you through that process. It wants tells you through that process. It wants tells you through that process. It wants to be this entire other thing.

to be this entire other thing. to be this entire other thing. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> You're saying that as if it's got a mind >> You're saying that as if it's got a mind >> You're saying that as if it's got a mind of its own. of its own. of its own. >> It does. Hm. >> It does. Hm. >> It does. Hm. Well, it I'm only saying it does because Well, it I'm only saying it does because Well, it I'm only saying it does because it shows you it shows you it shows you no what you think is wrong. Try it like no what you think is wrong. Try it like no what you think is wrong. Try it like this. this. this. You're sort of personifying. You're sort You're sort of personifying. You're sort You're sort of personifying. You're sort of of of >> Yeah, I'm personifying. It doesn't say >> Yeah, I'm personifying. It doesn't say >> Yeah, I'm personifying. It doesn't say it in words, but it's clear. The it in words, but it's clear. The it in words, but it's clear. The indicators are clear. What we get back indicators are clear. What we get back indicators are clear. What we get back is, hm, we thought it was supposed to be is, hm, we thought it was supposed to be is, hm, we thought it was supposed to be this fast. When we listen to it, it's this fast. When we listen to it, it's this fast. When we listen to it, it's clearly much too fast. We have to play clearly much too fast. We have to play clearly much too fast. We have to play it slower. We thought it was going to be it slower. We thought it was going to be it slower. We thought it was going to be a loud electric song. Turns out it wants a loud electric song. Turns out it wants a loud electric song. Turns out it wants to be a really quiet song. We didn't to be a really quiet song. We didn't to be a really quiet song. We didn't know that. know that. know that. Has there been a time where you thought Has there been a time where you thought Has there been a time where you thought something was just the most amazing something was just the most amazing something was just the most amazing thing ever and then when it went out thing ever and then when it went out thing ever and then when it went out into the world, the world didn't into the world, the world didn't into the world, the world didn't subjectively think it was amazing. subjectively think it was amazing. subjectively think it was amazing. >> For sure. It probably happens often. And >> For sure. It probably happens often. And >> For sure. It probably happens often. And how do you rationalize that on the basis how do you rationalize that on the basis how do you rationalize that on the basis of of of >> as soon as I decide that I like it >> as soon as I decide that I like it >> as soon as I decide that I like it enough to share with the world, I'm enough to share with the world, I'm enough to share with the world, I'm done. I move on to the next thing. I done. I move on to the next thing. I done. I move on to the next thing. I can't the what anyone else thinks can't the what anyone else thinks can't the what anyone else thinks doesn't really impact it. It's fun when doesn't really impact it. It's fun when doesn't really impact it. It's fun when people like it. I love it when people people like it. I love it when people people like it. I love it when people like it. But that's total bonus. The like it. But that's total bonus. The like it. But that's total bonus. The real work is I like this enough to put real work is I like this enough to put real work is I like this enough to put it out into the world. My name's on the it out into the world. My name's on the it out into the world. My name's on the back of the record. The artist's name's back of the record. The artist's name's back of the record. The artist's name's on the front. They like it enough to put on the front. They like it enough to put on the front. They like it enough to put it out. I like it enough to put it out.

it out. I like it enough to put it out. it out. I like it enough to put it out. Here you go. What's next? Here you go. What's next? Here you go. What's next? >> And what comes of that you're treating >> And what comes of that you're treating >> And what comes of that you're treating like none of your business. like none of your business. like none of your business. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] Cuz anything that I think of past that Cuz anything that I think of past that Cuz anything that I think of past that is going to totally undermine the is going to totally undermine the is going to totally undermine the creative process. The creative process creative process. The creative process creative process. The creative process is a pure is a pure is a pure uh delicate process uh delicate process uh delicate process to be protected. to be protected. to be protected. And if you're thinking about what And if you're thinking about what And if you're thinking about what happens next totally undermines it, the happens next totally undermines it, the happens next totally undermines it, the house of cards crumbles. house of cards crumbles. house of cards crumbles. When we're working in the studio and When we're working in the studio and When we're working in the studio and something starts sounding good and something starts sounding good and something starts sounding good and someone, one of the artists might say, someone, one of the artists might say, someone, one of the artists might say, "This sounds like it could be a single." "This sounds like it could be a single." "This sounds like it could be a single." It's like, "We're not talking about It's like, "We're not talking about It's like, "We're not talking about that. That has nothing to do with what that. That has nothing to do with what that. That has nothing to do with what we're doing. we're doing. we're doing. >> What are you doing? >> What are you doing? >> What are you doing? >> Making the best thing we can make. >> Making the best thing we can make. >> Making the best thing we can make. We We're making the best thing we can We We're making the best thing we can We We're making the best thing we can make. And I always used this I always make. And I always used this I always make. And I always used this I always thought of it as greatness. Like we're thought of it as greatness. Like we're thought of it as greatness. Like we're working towards greatness, timeless working towards greatness, timeless working towards greatness, timeless greatness. Didn't know what it meant.

greatness. Didn't know what it meant. greatness. Didn't know what it meant. And more recently, I came to realize And more recently, I came to realize And more recently, I came to realize we're making it as an offering to God. we're making it as an offering to God. we're making it as an offering to God. And if we're making it as an offering to And if we're making it as an offering to And if we're making it as an offering to God, things like the numbers, God, things like the numbers, God, things like the numbers, that's much that's insignificant. that's much that's insignificant. that's much that's insignificant. This is we're doing our best as an This is we're doing our best as an This is we're doing our best as an offering. offering. offering. There's nothing deeper than that. There's nothing deeper than that. There's nothing deeper than that. There's no metric that competes with There's no metric that competes with There's no metric that competes with that. I didn't always know that, but it was I didn't always know that, but it was always the same. always the same. always the same. Was Was Was there a point when you realized that? there a point when you realized that? there a point when you realized that? >> Yeah, a few years ago. >> Yeah, a few years ago. >> Yeah, a few years ago. And it felt good when I realized it. It And it felt good when I realized it. It And it felt good when I realized it. It was like, ah, was like, ah, was like, ah, of course, of course, of course, you know, 35 years in like, oh, you know, 35 years in like, oh, you know, 35 years in like, oh, >> do you remember the moment? >> do you remember the moment? >> do you remember the moment? >> I have a vague memory. I don't remember >> I have a vague memory. I don't remember >> I have a vague memory. I don't remember the specifics. I remember I was sitting the specifics. I remember I was sitting the specifics. I remember I was sitting on a lifeguard chair in Hawaii on a lifeguard chair in Hawaii on a lifeguard chair in Hawaii [clears throat] and um and I remember [clears throat] and um and I remember [clears throat] and um and I remember thinking about it there, but I don't thinking about it there, but I don't thinking about it there, but I don't know if that's the moment where it know if that's the moment where it know if that's the moment where it struck me, but I remember it was like it struck me, but I remember it was like it struck me, but I remember it was like it was a total epiphany even though it was was a total epiphany even though it was was a total epiphany even though it was only, you know, only, you know, only, you know, for me. It didn't apply to anything for me. It didn't apply to anything for me. It didn't apply to anything else. It was just like I realized else. It was just like I realized else. It was just like I realized what I've been doing all this time what I've been doing all this time what I've been doing all this time without understanding it. It just became without understanding it. It just became without understanding it. It just became clear. It's like ah that's what it is.

Yeah, it was a great it was a great Yeah, it was a great it was a great feeling of like now it all makes more feeling of like now it all makes more feeling of like now it all makes more sense. sense. sense. >> Do you mean in the literal sense? You >> Do you mean in the literal sense? You >> Do you mean in the literal sense? You think that you are making offerings for think that you are making offerings for think that you are making offerings for a higher power? Very literally. a higher power? Very literally. a higher power? Very literally. >> I'm saying God >> and God defined as the higher power. >> and God defined as the higher power. >> We can call him the father. >> We can call him the father. >> We can call him the father. >> Okay. And you're liter So So the art you >> Okay. And you're liter So So the art you >> Okay. And you're liter So So the art you make, the music you you make, he is make, the music you you make, he is make, the music you you make, he is actually the customer in some respects. actually the customer in some respects. actually the customer in some respects. >> No, because it's a gift. So he's not >> No, because it's a gift. So he's not >> No, because it's a gift. So he's not it's not a customer. He's the it's not a customer. He's the it's not a customer. He's the beneficiary, but he's not the customer. beneficiary, but he's not the customer. beneficiary, but he's not the customer. And it's like a I want to I want to And it's like a I want to I want to And it's like a I want to I want to show you my best show you my best show you my best out of love and thanks, gratitude. out of love and thanks, gratitude. out of love and thanks, gratitude. Here's the best I can do. That's what it is. That's what it is. This is my best. This is my best. This is my best. If anybody else likes it, great. But if If anybody else likes it, great. But if If anybody else likes it, great. But if not, we're good.

not, we're good. not, we're good. Does he ever give feedback? Does he ever give feedback? Does he ever give feedback? I want to say that when other people I want to say that when other people I want to say that when other people like it, I might I might take that as a like it, I might I might take that as a like it, I might I might take that as a good sign, but I don't know. I I don't good sign, but I don't know. I I don't good sign, but I don't know. I I don't really think about it, but I feel like really think about it, but I feel like really think about it, but I feel like when a lot of people like it, it's like when a lot of people like it, it's like when a lot of people like it, it's like the energy of it is positive all the way the energy of it is positive all the way the energy of it is positive all the way around. around. around. Interesting to think about, fun to think Interesting to think about, fun to think Interesting to think about, fun to think about. about. about. >> Do you think that's why we're here? Cuz >> Do you think that's why we're here? Cuz >> Do you think that's why we're here? Cuz I'm now trying to figure out why there I'm now trying to figure out why there I'm now trying to figure out why there would be such relationship with God would be such relationship with God would be such relationship with God where we were offering gifts and how where we were offering gifts and how where we were offering gifts and how that links to our maybe higher purpose. that links to our maybe higher purpose. that links to our maybe higher purpose. >> Well, I think we're here to show who we >> Well, I think we're here to show who we >> Well, I think we're here to show who we are. We're here to self-express. are. We're here to self-express. are. We're here to self-express. I am here. I'm here to tell you this is I am here. I'm here to tell you this is I am here. I'm here to tell you this is me. This is how I see the world. And to me. This is how I see the world. And to me. This is how I see the world. And to say to you, show me who you are. Tell me say to you, show me who you are. Tell me say to you, show me who you are. Tell me how you see the world. And the way we how you see the world. And the way we how you see the world. And the way we make sense of it is we discuss that. And make sense of it is we discuss that. And make sense of it is we discuss that. And we may, in some areas, we may line up. we may, in some areas, we may line up. we may, in some areas, we may line up. In some cases, we may differ. But that's In some cases, we may differ. But that's In some cases, we may differ. But that's how we figure it out. And everything we how we figure it out. And everything we how we figure it out. And everything we do is this is how I see the world. And do is this is how I see the world. And do is this is how I see the world. And then other people say, "I never saw it then other people say, "I never saw it then other people say, "I never saw it that way, but yes, that way, but yes, that way, but yes, I'm on board with that." And other I'm on board with that." And other I'm on board with that." And other people are like, "No, that's not for people are like, "No, that's not for people are like, "No, that's not for me." And that's fine.

me." And that's fine. me." And that's fine. But we are here. Our purpose is to But we are here. Our purpose is to But we are here. Our purpose is to self-express through several different means through through several different means through any different [clears throat] way any any different [clears throat] way any any different [clears throat] way any self-expression comes in a lot of in a self-expression comes in a lot of in a self-expression comes in a lot of in a lot of forms. lot of forms. lot of forms. But the best version, it's never because But the best version, it's never because But the best version, it's never because they did it this way. That's not they did it this way. That's not they did it this way. That's not self-expression. self-expression. self-expression. Copying the They were successful and I'm Copying the They were successful and I'm Copying the They were successful and I'm copying them. That's not copying them. That's not copying them. That's not self-expression. self-expression. self-expression. That's a different game. That's a different game. That's a different game. That's not what we're here for. You can That's not what we're here for. You can That's not what we're here for. You can do it. It's fine. It's fine. But I don't do it. It's fine. It's fine. But I don't do it. It's fine. It's fine. But I don't think that's why we're here. think that's why we're here. think that's why we're here. >> I sat with a someone who is an expert on >> I sat with a someone who is an expert on >> I sat with a someone who is an expert on consciousness. He's a physicist who consciousness. He's a physicist who consciousness. He's a physicist who just, you know, is very spiritual. One just, you know, is very spiritual. One just, you know, is very spiritual. One of the things he said to me which has of the things he said to me which has of the things he said to me which has really stayed with me is he was positing really stayed with me is he was positing really stayed with me is he was positing that potentially consciousness itself is that potentially consciousness itself is that potentially consciousness itself is God has divided consciousness into lots God has divided consciousness into lots God has divided consciousness into lots of little pieces into my French bulldog of little pieces into my French bulldog of little pieces into my French bulldog Pablo into Rick into someone in China Pablo into Rick into someone in China Pablo into Rick into someone in China and he set us all off to go and explore and he set us all off to go and explore and he set us all off to go and explore and understand the world and by doing so and understand the world and by doing so and understand the world and by doing so consciousness is seeking to understand consciousness is seeking to understand consciousness is seeking to understand itself. very strange idea. And then I itself. very strange idea. And then I itself. very strange idea. And then I went to I think Malta and I was driving went to I think Malta and I was driving went to I think Malta and I was driving down the road in Malta and I looked and down the road in Malta and I looked and down the road in Malta and I looked and I saw these tourists and with that idea I saw these tourists and with that idea I saw these tourists and with that idea in mind that consciousness has divided in mind that consciousness has divided in mind that consciousness has divided itself to go and understand itself into itself to go and understand itself into itself to go and understand itself into these pieces into a fish so we can go these pieces into a fish so we can go these pieces into a fish so we can go check the bottom of the ocean. I saw check the bottom of the ocean. I saw check the bottom of the ocean. I saw these tourists and they were all just these tourists and they were all just these tourists and they were all just looking up at this mountain.

looking up at this mountain. looking up at this mountain. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And like with in the abstract that's it >> And like with in the abstract that's it >> And like with in the abstract that's it looks like a very strange thing that looks like a very strange thing that looks like a very strange thing that we're like fascinated by the novel. And we're like fascinated by the novel. And we're like fascinated by the novel. And so I started to think maybe that is so I started to think maybe that is so I started to think maybe that is true. Maybe this thing called true. Maybe this thing called true. Maybe this thing called consciousness is this exploration to consciousness is this exploration to consciousness is this exploration to understand understand understand itself and it's turned some itself and it's turned some itself and it's turned some consciousness has gone into Rick and consciousness has gone into Rick and consciousness has gone into Rick and Rick is experimenting and creating to Rick is experimenting and creating to Rick is experimenting and creating to understand and to and kind of what you understand and to and kind of what you understand and to and kind of what you were saying there reminded me of it cuz were saying there reminded me of it cuz were saying there reminded me of it cuz sounded like you were talking about sounded like you were talking about sounded like you were talking about consciousness itself and the consciousness itself and the consciousness itself and the self-exression of consciousness. So self-exression of consciousness. So self-exression of consciousness. So >> it could be >> it could be >> it could be it's a beautiful idea. it's a beautiful idea. it's a beautiful idea. >> Strange idea, isn't it? Not >> Strange idea, isn't it? Not >> Strange idea, isn't it? Not >> not strange to me. >> not strange to me. >> not strange to me. >> Not strange [laughter] to you. Okay. >> Not strange [laughter] to you. Okay. >> Not strange [laughter] to you. Okay. >> Not at all. Nothing. Nothing is >> Not at all. Nothing. Nothing is >> Not at all. Nothing. Nothing is >> Nothing is off the table. >> Nothing is off the table. >> Nothing is off the table. >> Nothing's off the table. >> Nothing's off the table. >> Nothing's off the table. >> One of um one of the great artists >> One of um one of the great artists >> One of um one of the great artists you've uh you've worked with, we talked you've uh you've worked with, we talked you've uh you've worked with, we talked about is um is Jay-Z. about is um is Jay-Z. about is um is Jay-Z. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And you have this wonderful eight-part >> And you have this wonderful eight-part >> And you have this wonderful eight-part documentary. documentary. documentary. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Coming out with Jay-Z, which I was >> Coming out with Jay-Z, which I was >> Coming out with Jay-Z, which I was fascinated enough to uh what I found fascinated enough to uh what I found fascinated enough to uh what I found fascinating to watch. It's out on the fascinating to watch. It's out on the fascinating to watch. It's out on the 18th of September. And one of the clips 18th of September. And one of the clips 18th of September. And one of the clips that I watched from it just had us run that I watched from it just had us run that I watched from it just had us run down down down is the story of um this brand.

is the story of um this brand. is the story of um this brand. >> Ah yes, Ace of Spades. I found it really >> Ah yes, Ace of Spades. I found it really >> Ah yes, Ace of Spades. I found it really fascinating the story that Jay-Z told fascinating the story that Jay-Z told fascinating the story that Jay-Z told about this brand Ace of Spades um for about this brand Ace of Spades um for about this brand Ace of Spades um for many reasons, but it also it rhymes with many reasons, but it also it rhymes with many reasons, but it also it rhymes with some of the things you're saying about some of the things you're saying about some of the things you're saying about integrity and how you feel and his integrity and how you feel and his integrity and how you feel and his decision to decision to decision to um abandon another brand and at a cost um abandon another brand and at a cost um abandon another brand and at a cost at a near-term cost against his at a near-term cost against his at a near-term cost against his near-term incentives and pursue near-term incentives and pursue near-term incentives and pursue launching his own. launching his own. launching his own. >> Yes. And what's interesting what what's >> Yes. And what's interesting what what's >> Yes. And what's interesting what what's most interesting about that story and most interesting about that story and most interesting about that story and it's not we don't make a lot of it. It's it's not we don't make a lot of it. It's it's not we don't make a lot of it. It's just a passing remark but what happened just a passing remark but what happened just a passing remark but what happened was he decided not to support was he decided not to support was he decided not to support a company going forward. a company going forward. a company going forward. >> Crystal >> Crystal >> Crystal >> yes which he had made very popular in >> yes which he had made very popular in >> yes which he had made very popular in the hip-hop community. He was the first the hip-hop community. He was the first the hip-hop community. He was the first person to drink it. Nobody knew what it person to drink it. Nobody knew what it person to drink it. Nobody knew what it was. He talked about it in in records, was. He talked about it in in records, was. He talked about it in in records, in songs, and it became a very popular in songs, and it became a very popular in songs, and it became a very popular drink in the hip-hop community.

drink in the hip-hop community. drink in the hip-hop community. And the person who ran Crystal said some And the person who ran Crystal said some And the person who ran Crystal said some disparaging remarks about it, about disparaging remarks about it, about disparaging remarks about it, about hip-hop people drinking Crystal. hip-hop people drinking Crystal. hip-hop people drinking Crystal. >> I can't get them to stop drinking it. >> I can't get them to stop drinking it. >> I can't get them to stop drinking it. >> Yeah. And Jay was insulted, rightly so. >> Yeah. And Jay was insulted, rightly so. >> Yeah. And Jay was insulted, rightly so. And he said, "You know what? No more. I And he said, "You know what? No more. I And he said, "You know what? No more. I won't do that anymore." Now, he that won't do that anymore." Now, he that won't do that anymore." Now, he that didn't happen and then he thought, I'm didn't happen and then he thought, I'm didn't happen and then he thought, I'm going to go start my own. That's not going to go start my own. That's not going to go start my own. That's not what happened. That happened and almost what happened. That happened and almost what happened. That happened and almost immediately immediately immediately someone came to him and said, I'm someone came to him and said, I'm someone came to him and said, I'm thinking about starting this brand. Do thinking about starting this brand. Do thinking about starting this brand. Do you want to do it with me? you want to do it with me? you want to do it with me? And all they had was the bottle. Which And all they had was the bottle. Which And all they had was the bottle. Which he loved the shape of the bottle and he he loved the shape of the bottle and he he loved the shape of the bottle and he loved that it was a gold bottle. loved that it was a gold bottle. loved that it was a gold bottle. And And And it's like the universe allowed it's like the universe allowed it's like the universe allowed first he gets this negative comment he first he gets this negative comment he first he gets this negative comment he reacts following his belief stood for reacts following his belief stood for reacts following his belief stood for what he believed in what he believed in what he believed in >> removed it from his clubs. >> removed it from his clubs. >> removed it from his clubs. >> Yes. And this new opportunity that he >> Yes. And this new opportunity that he >> Yes. And this new opportunity that he was not looking for was not looking for was not looking for arrives arrives arrives and it's like you couldn't write the and it's like you couldn't write the and it's like you couldn't write the story. I mean, you could write the story. I mean, you could write the story. I mean, you could write the story, but it seems almost unbelievable story, but it seems almost unbelievable story, but it seems almost unbelievable the way it happened, but that's how it the way it happened, but that's how it the way it happened, but that's how it really happened. And that's again like really happened. And that's again like really happened. And that's again like the miraculous nature of Jay did the the miraculous nature of Jay did the the miraculous nature of Jay did the right thing and in response for doing right thing and in response for doing right thing and in response for doing the right thing, the right thing, the right thing, he ended up owning a champagne brand.

he ended up owning a champagne brand. he ended up owning a champagne brand. >> Do you believe that's how the universe >> Do you believe that's how the universe >> Do you believe that's how the universe is working? is working? is working? >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> I know it. >> I know it. >> I know it. I know it. I know it. I know it. >> Is that karma? What is that? >> Is that karma? What is that? >> Is that karma? What is that? >> Well, that's part it. You could call it >> Well, that's part it. You could call it >> Well, that's part it. You could call it that. It's like there there's a lot of that. It's like there there's a lot of that. It's like there there's a lot of there's a lot of names. There's a lot of there's a lot of names. There's a lot of there's a lot of names. There's a lot of labels, but you can call it karma. labels, but you can call it karma. labels, but you can call it karma. >> When he took that action, he wasn't >> When he took that action, he wasn't >> When he took that action, he wasn't thinking about how he might benefit. thinking about how he might benefit. thinking about how he might benefit. Not at all. All he knew was these guys Not at all. All he knew was these guys Not at all. All he knew was these guys are insulting this movement and I'm not are insulting this movement and I'm not are insulting this movement and I'm not going to have anything to do with them going to have anything to do with them going to have anything to do with them anymore after I was telling everybody anymore after I was telling everybody anymore after I was telling everybody this is the best stuff. They insult us. this is the best stuff. They insult us. this is the best stuff. They insult us. They're we crossing them off. They're They're we crossing them off. They're They're we crossing them off. They're not for us anymore. We will not give not for us anymore. We will not give not for us anymore. We will not give them our business. them our business. them our business. He wasn't thinking about starting a He wasn't thinking about starting a He wasn't thinking about starting a business. He was he wasn't thinking business. He was he wasn't thinking business. He was he wasn't thinking about that at all. about that at all. about that at all. But it became a great business. But it became a great business. But it became a great business. >> It became a great business. But it's >> It became a great business. But it's >> It became a great business. But it's it's the universe filled the void. This it's the universe filled the void. This it's the universe filled the void. This is another thing we could talk about. is another thing we could talk about. is another thing we could talk about. It's an interesting idea.

It's an interesting idea. It's an interesting idea. You're in a you're dating someone. You're in a you're dating someone. You're in a you're dating someone. you think maybe this is not this is not you think maybe this is not this is not you think maybe this is not this is not right for the long term right for the long term right for the long term but you're going along with it and then but you're going along with it and then but you're going along with it and then you think well maybe I'll meet someone you think well maybe I'll meet someone you think well maybe I'll meet someone while this is happening and then if I while this is happening and then if I while this is happening and then if I like that person more then I'll get out like that person more then I'll get out like that person more then I'll get out of this relationship for that of this relationship for that of this relationship for that relationship and switch a lot of people relationship and switch a lot of people relationship and switch a lot of people do this I feel like it's not the way I do this I feel like it's not the way I do this I feel like it's not the way I don't I don't think that's the way it don't I don't think that's the way it don't I don't think that's the way it works I think works I think works I think when you know that something isn't when you know that something isn't when you know that something isn't working and you end it and you create working and you end it and you create working and you end it and you create that vacuum. You create that space, that vacuum. You create that space, that vacuum. You create that space, the good thing that you're looking for the good thing that you're looking for the good thing that you're looking for can come in to fill it. Jay wasn't can come in to fill it. Jay wasn't can come in to fill it. Jay wasn't looking in this case, he wasn't looking looking in this case, he wasn't looking looking in this case, he wasn't looking for a good thing to fill it, but he did for a good thing to fill it, but he did for a good thing to fill it, but he did create a vacuum in his life. There's a create a vacuum in his life. There's a create a vacuum in his life. There's a thing that he's out there representing. thing that he's out there representing. thing that he's out there representing. And now he decides based on their And now he decides based on their And now he decides based on their action, I'm not going to represent this action, I'm not going to represent this action, I'm not going to represent this anymore. And the universe steps in and anymore. And the universe steps in and anymore. And the universe steps in and says, you know what? you were doing a says, you know what? you were doing a says, you know what? you were doing a good job representing that thing.

good job representing that thing. good job representing that thing. How about representing one for yourself How about representing one for yourself How about representing one for yourself that you can feel good about that you can feel good about that you can feel good about representing? representing? representing? >> It's funny what you were saying there um >> It's funny what you were saying there um >> It's funny what you were saying there um about creating a vacuum. We in culture about creating a vacuum. We in culture about creating a vacuum. We in culture like generally in society we celebrate like generally in society we celebrate like generally in society we celebrate starting. So like you know you start a starting. So like you know you start a starting. So like you know you start a new job, you start a new thing but new job, you start a new thing but new job, you start a new thing but obviously from what you've just said obviously from what you've just said obviously from what you've just said logically logically logically you can't really start anything big in you can't really start anything big in you can't really start anything big in life without first doing something which life without first doing something which life without first doing something which none of us really glamorize actually none of us really glamorize actually none of us really glamorize actually it's the opposite. We say never quit. it's the opposite. We say never quit. it's the opposite. We say never quit. Don't quit. Yeah, Don't quit. Yeah, Don't quit. Yeah, >> but that is the necessary first step to >> but that is the necessary first step to >> but that is the necessary first step to starting to starting a brand which in starting to starting a brand which in starting to starting a brand which in Jay-Z's case went on to be worth 630 Jay-Z's case went on to be worth 630 Jay-Z's case went on to be worth 630 million at the time when he sold his million at the time when he sold his million at the time when he sold his stake. Um, we have a weird relationship stake. Um, we have a weird relationship stake. Um, we have a weird relationship with quitting. We need certainty. I need with quitting. We need certainty. I need with quitting. We need certainty. I need the branch. the branch. the branch. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, I think that's it's an empowering No, I think that's it's an empowering No, I think that's it's an empowering thing. It's like taking control. I just thing. It's like taking control. I just thing. It's like taking control. I just had a conversation about this recently had a conversation about this recently had a conversation about this recently with someone who's a with someone who's a with someone who's a very high up person in a very high-tech very high up person in a very high-tech very high up person in a very high-tech company who is um who's decided to step company who is um who's decided to step company who is um who's decided to step down and he's stepping down for the down and he's stepping down for the down and he's stepping down for the right reasons right reasons right reasons and he's concerned that people the and he's concerned that people the and he's concerned that people the perception will be he's being fired that perception will be he's being fired that perception will be he's being fired that that'll be the outside world but he's that'll be the outside world but he's that'll be the outside world but he's really stepping down because he doesn't really stepping down because he doesn't really stepping down because he doesn't like what's going on there and usually like what's going on there and usually like what's going on there and usually people don't leave jobs at that level. M people don't leave jobs at that level. M people don't leave jobs at that level. M >> so it's an interesting it's an >> so it's an interesting it's an >> so it's an interesting it's an interesting moment in time when that interesting moment in time when that interesting moment in time when that when that happens when that happens when that happens >> similar to what you were saying about >> similar to what you were saying about >> similar to what you were saying about getting artists to step outside of their getting artists to step outside of their getting artists to step outside of their genre to quit their genre.

genre to quit their genre. genre to quit their genre. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is something that I've made for >> This is something that I've made for >> This is something that I've made for you. I realize that the dire audience you. I realize that the dire audience you. I realize that the dire audience are strivvers whether it's in business are strivvers whether it's in business are strivvers whether it's in business or health. We all have big goals that we or health. We all have big goals that we or health. We all have big goals that we want to accomplish. And one of the want to accomplish. And one of the want to accomplish. And one of the things I've learned is that when you aim things I've learned is that when you aim things I've learned is that when you aim at the big big big goal, it can feel at the big big big goal, it can feel at the big big big goal, it can feel incredibly psychologically uncomfortable incredibly psychologically uncomfortable incredibly psychologically uncomfortable because it's kind of like being stood at because it's kind of like being stood at because it's kind of like being stood at the foot of Mount Everest and looking the foot of Mount Everest and looking the foot of Mount Everest and looking upwards. The way to accomplish your upwards. The way to accomplish your upwards. The way to accomplish your goals is by breaking them down into tiny goals is by breaking them down into tiny goals is by breaking them down into tiny small steps. And we call this in our small steps. And we call this in our small steps. And we call this in our team the 1%. And actually this team the 1%. And actually this team the 1%. And actually this philosophy is highly responsible for philosophy is highly responsible for philosophy is highly responsible for much of our success here. So, what we've much of our success here. So, what we've much of our success here. So, what we've done so that you at home can accomplish done so that you at home can accomplish done so that you at home can accomplish any big goal that you have is we've made any big goal that you have is we've made any big goal that you have is we've made these 1% diaries and we released these these 1% diaries and we released these these 1% diaries and we released these last year and they all sold out. So, I last year and they all sold out. So, I last year and they all sold out. So, I asked my team over and over again to asked my team over and over again to asked my team over and over again to bring the diaries back, but also to bring the diaries back, but also to bring the diaries back, but also to introduce some new colors and to make introduce some new colors and to make introduce some new colors and to make some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now we have a better range for you. So, if we have a better range for you. So, if we have a better range for you. So, if you have a big goal in mind and you need you have a big goal in mind and you need you have a big goal in mind and you need a framework and a process and some a framework and a process and some a framework and a process and some motivation, then I highly recommend you motivation, then I highly recommend you motivation, then I highly recommend you get one of these diaries before they all get one of these diaries before they all get one of these diaries before they all sell out once again. And you can get sell out once again. And you can get sell out once again. And you can get yours at the diary.com.

yours at the diary.com. yours at the diary.com. And if you want the link, the link is in And if you want the link, the link is in And if you want the link, the link is in the description below. There should be a the description below. There should be a the description below. There should be a button just down below here. And if it button just down below here. And if it button just down below here. And if it says subscribed, you're already says subscribed, you're already says subscribed, you're already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that subscribed. If it says subscriber, that subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet. And if you're not means you're not yet. And if you're not means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a subscribed, please could you do us a subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the favor and hit that button? It helps the favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you know. And according show more than you know. And according show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that to the algorithm, you're someone that to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet watches our show, but you haven't yet watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button. Thank you so much. I hit that button. Thank you so much. I hit that button. Thank you so much. I hear you used to make music with one of hear you used to make music with one of hear you used to make music with one of these things here. I've never used that these things here. I've never used that these things here. I've never used that particular device, but it looks particular device, but it looks particular device, but it looks beautiful. beautiful. beautiful. >> You know, if I came to you, Rick, and I >> You know, if I came to you, Rick, and I >> You know, if I came to you, Rick, and I went, I love that. I love that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And clearly, I mean, objectively, it >> And clearly, I mean, objectively, it >> And clearly, I mean, objectively, it wasn't great. wasn't great. wasn't great. >> I don't know. could be great >> I don't know. could be great >> I don't know. could be great >> if but if I [music] if I was like Rick >> I want to put that out. >> I want to put that out. >> Do you really believe it's great? If you >> Do you really believe it's great? If you >> Do you really believe it's great? If you really believe it's great I support you really believe it's great I support you really believe it's great I support you putting it out. putting it out. putting it out. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> If you really believe it's great. Yes. >> If you really believe it's great. Yes. >> If you really believe it's great. Yes. >> Would you interrogate? >> Would you interrogate? >> Would you interrogate? >> You're giving me this hypothetical with >> You're giving me this hypothetical with >> You're giving me this hypothetical with like what if this thing that's bad if I like what if this thing that's bad if I like what if this thing that's bad if I tell you I think it's great. It's like tell you I think it's great. It's like tell you I think it's great. It's like you don't believe it's great.

you don't believe it's great. you don't believe it's great. I trust when you tell me I really love I trust when you tell me I really love I trust when you tell me I really love this thing. I want to play it for this thing. I want to play it for this thing. I want to play it for people. I support that. people. I support that. people. I support that. >> Even if you don't, it doesn't matter if >> Even if you don't, it doesn't matter if >> Even if you don't, it doesn't matter if you you you >> doesn't matter. And if I don't like it, >> doesn't matter. And if I don't like it, >> doesn't matter. And if I don't like it, I'll say you might want to try these I'll say you might want to try these I'll say you might want to try these things. things. things. But I always support somebody who makes But I always support somebody who makes But I always support somebody who makes something that they love. That's something that they love. That's something that they love. That's beautiful for the world. beautiful for the world. beautiful for the world. >> Is there an example of that with artists >> Is there an example of that with artists >> Is there an example of that with artists you've worked with where they presented you've worked with where they presented you've worked with where they presented you with something and you didn't really you with something and you didn't really you with something and you didn't really get it, you didn't feel it? You didn't get it, you didn't feel it? You didn't get it, you didn't feel it? You didn't like it. They put it out and it was a like it. They put it out and it was a like it. They put it out and it was a huge success for them but also for the huge success for them but also for the huge success for them but also for the audience. audience. audience. >> I can think of one but I don't really >> I can think of one but I don't really >> I can think of one but I don't really want to talk about it but yes I could want to talk about it but yes I could want to talk about it but yes I could think of one. It it has happened. think of one. It it has happened. think of one. It it has happened. >> Is there anything you can tell me about >> Is there anything you can tell me about >> Is there anything you can tell me about it without identifying what the song was it without identifying what the song was it without identifying what the song was or the person was? or the person was? or the person was? >> Um >> Um >> Um I was working with an artist and there I was working with an artist and there I was working with an artist and there were lots of good songs and there was were lots of good songs and there was were lots of good songs and there was one song that I felt like this one one song that I felt like this one one song that I felt like this one doesn't fit with all the rest. M it doesn't fit with all the rest. M it doesn't fit with all the rest. M it feels like it doesn't go with the others feels like it doesn't go with the others feels like it doesn't go with the others and um the artist chose to include that and um the artist chose to include that and um the artist chose to include that one and it ended up becoming a big hit one and it ended up becoming a big hit one and it ended up becoming a big hit wasn't the first single but it did wasn't the first single but it did wasn't the first single but it did become a big hit become a big hit become a big hit and and and it's anytime I give my opinion this it's anytime I give my opinion this it's anytime I give my opinion this isn't this is a really interesting idea isn't this is a really interesting idea isn't this is a really interesting idea this idea of I'm asked how do I have the this idea of I'm asked how do I have the this idea of I'm asked how do I have the confidence confidence confidence cuz when I say I don't like something, I cuz when I say I don't like something, I cuz when I say I don't like something, I really mean it. It's like, well, how really mean it. It's like, well, how really mean it. It's like, well, how could you have the confidence that it's could you have the confidence that it's could you have the confidence that it's not good? It's like, well, I have the

not good? It's like, well, I have the not good? It's like, well, I have the confidence that I don't like the pizza. confidence that I don't like the pizza. confidence that I don't like the pizza. >> It It doesn't mean more than that. You >> It It doesn't mean more than that. You >> It It doesn't mean more than that. You know, it ends I was asked to produce know, it ends I was asked to produce know, it ends I was asked to produce Guns and Roses's first album and I Guns and Roses's first album and I Guns and Roses's first album and I turned them down because I went to see turned them down because I went to see turned them down because I went to see him live, played in a little club in a him live, played in a little club in a him live, played in a little club in a basement, maybe 30 people there, and basement, maybe 30 people there, and basement, maybe 30 people there, and they were they were a hair band at the they were they were a hair band at the they were they were a hair band at the time with makeup and stuff and I just time with makeup and stuff and I just time with makeup and stuff and I just looked like I don't really get it. looked like I don't really get it. looked like I don't really get it. Now, they went on to become Guns and Now, they went on to become Guns and Now, they went on to become Guns and Roses. Roses. Roses. It's good that I didn't work with them It's good that I didn't work with them It's good that I didn't work with them because if I would have worked with because if I would have worked with because if I would have worked with them, it might have turned into them, it might have turned into them, it might have turned into something different than what they did something different than what they did something different than what they did without me. without me. without me. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, it wasn't the right it wasn't the >> So, it wasn't the right it wasn't the >> So, it wasn't the right it wasn't the right fit. Um, right fit. Um, right fit. Um, do you know what I'm saying? It's like, do you know what I'm saying? It's like, do you know what I'm saying? It's like, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it's >> I'm honest about what I see and it's >> I'm honest about what I see and it's true, but it's only true for me. true, but it's only true for me. true, but it's only true for me. I'm wondering if you can be at the I'm wondering if you can be at the I'm wondering if you can be at the inverse of that if you can be a great inverse of that if you can be a great inverse of that if you can be a great creative and never be commercially creative and never be commercially creative and never be commercially successful ever. Absolutely.

successful ever. Absolutely. successful ever. Absolutely. For sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. Probably more often than not. That's Probably more often than not. That's Probably more often than not. That's probably the probably the probably the That's probably regular That's probably regular That's probably regular because becoming successful has so much because becoming successful has so much because becoming successful has so much to do with other things beyond being to do with other things beyond being to do with other things beyond being talented. M talented. M talented. M >> like the talent is a piece but then the >> like the talent is a piece but then the >> like the talent is a piece but then the stars have to align like for for stars have to align like for for stars have to align like for for anything to break through and get anything to break through and get anything to break through and get successful. So many things have to go right so many So many things have to go right so many totally out of your control. You must have worked with a lot of You must have worked with a lot of artists where you thought I know this artists where you thought I know this artists where you thought I know this person is so talented. person is so talented. person is so talented. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but for whatever reason they they >> Um but for whatever reason they they >> Um but for whatever reason they they just didn't just didn't just didn't >> Yeah. It happens. the world wasn't. It >> Yeah. It happens. the world wasn't. It >> Yeah. It happens. the world wasn't. It happens. And that also could be a karmic happens. And that also could be a karmic happens. And that also could be a karmic thing like there could be maybe for some thing like there could be maybe for some thing like there could be maybe for some reason this person as good as they are reason this person as good as they are reason this person as good as they are that's not their path on this life.

that's not their path on this life. that's not their path on this life. Maybe success is not part of their life Maybe success is not part of their life Maybe success is not part of their life path. path. path. Who knows? That's a it's a different Who knows? That's a it's a different Who knows? That's a it's a different that's a different question. You know, that's a different question. You know, that's a different question. You know, >> you co-founded Death Jam when you were a >> you co-founded Death Jam when you were a >> you co-founded Death Jam when you were a very young young man. I think you were very young young man. I think you were very young young man. I think you were 21 years old when you co-ounded Death 21 years old when you co-ounded Death 21 years old when you co-ounded Death Jam. Jam. Jam. And then And then And then >> through that process, you you got to >> through that process, you you got to >> through that process, you you got to meet, you know, some incredible people. meet, you know, some incredible people. meet, you know, some incredible people. I've got some of the albums that you I've got some of the albums that you I've got some of the albums that you produced around that time and published. produced around that time and published. produced around that time and published. Um, but one of those people through Um, but one of those people through Um, but one of those people through throughout your career and then throughout your career and then throughout your career and then thereafter was Jay-Z. What was special thereafter was Jay-Z. What was special thereafter was Jay-Z. What was special about Jay? about Jay? about Jay? Jay wrote in a way that no one else Jay wrote in a way that no one else Jay wrote in a way that no one else wrote. All the other rappers that I wrote. All the other rappers that I wrote. All the other rappers that I worked with spent a lot of time writing worked with spent a lot of time writing worked with spent a lot of time writing lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. And I never saw Jay write lyrics. lyrics. lyrics. And when I got to work with him, I got And when I got to work with him, I got And when I got to work with him, I got to see him not physically write lyrics. to see him not physically write lyrics. to see him not physically write lyrics. And when I played him the beat for 99 And when I played him the beat for 99 And when I played him the beat for 99 Problems, Problems, Problems, he said, "Okay, just keep looping it. he said, "Okay, just keep looping it. he said, "Okay, just keep looping it. Keep playing it over and over again." Keep playing it over and over again." Keep playing it over and over again." And he sat in the back of the room. And And he sat in the back of the room. And And he sat in the back of the room. And it went on long enough that I almost it went on long enough that I almost it went on long enough that I almost forgot that he was there because I was forgot that he was there because I was forgot that he was there because I was talking to the engineer and song's just talking to the engineer and song's just talking to the engineer and song's just playing over and over. And he's silent playing over and over. And he's silent playing over and over. And he's silent in the back. On occasion, you could hear in the back. On occasion, you could hear in the back. On occasion, you could hear him mumbling or humming.

him mumbling or humming. him mumbling or humming. And then after 20 or 30 minutes, he's And then after 20 or 30 minutes, he's And then after 20 or 30 minutes, he's like, "Okay, I got it." Ran into the like, "Okay, I got it." Ran into the like, "Okay, I got it." Ran into the other room and did the first verse other room and did the first verse other room and did the first verse totally the whole thing. No, nothing was totally the whole thing. No, nothing was totally the whole thing. No, nothing was written. Just written. Just written. Just he just remembered it. And he did it. He he just remembered it. And he did it. He he just remembered it. And he did it. He did several takes. And each of the takes did several takes. And each of the takes did several takes. And each of the takes the words were the same, but the cadence the words were the same, but the cadence the words were the same, but the cadence was different. Like almost as if a was different. Like almost as if a was different. Like almost as if a saxoponist was playing a solo. And you saxoponist was playing a solo. And you saxoponist was playing a solo. And you you know how the solo goes, but every you know how the solo goes, but every you know how the solo goes, but every time you play it, you play a little time you play it, you play a little time you play it, you play a little different. different. different. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's what it was like. Like it had >> That's what it was like. Like it had >> That's what it was like. Like it had emphasis in different places and the emphasis in different places and the emphasis in different places and the cadence was a little different and one cadence was a little different and one cadence was a little different and one word might be featured in one version word might be featured in one version word might be featured in one version whereas in the next version that word whereas in the next version that word whereas in the next version that word just kind of went by less important. Um just kind of went by less important. Um just kind of went by less important. Um and then so he did let's say three takes and then so he did let's say three takes and then so he did let's say three takes and then he came in, he'd listen to him. and then he came in, he'd listen to him. and then he came in, he'd listen to him. He's like, "Oh yeah, I think the second He's like, "Oh yeah, I think the second He's like, "Oh yeah, I think the second one's good." And then he's like, "Okay, one's good." And then he's like, "Okay, one's good." And then he's like, "Okay, keep playing it and I'll" and he sat keep playing it and I'll" and he sat keep playing it and I'll" and he sat back down and he did the same thing back down and he did the same thing back down and he did the same thing again about another half hour later. again about another half hour later. again about another half hour later. He's like, "Let's do the next one till He's like, "Let's do the next one till He's like, "Let's do the next one till he was ready." So he just it just he was ready." So he just it just he was ready." So he just it just happens in his mind.

happens in his mind. happens in his mind. >> What is that? Is that taste? Is that >> What is that? Is that taste? Is that >> What is that? Is that taste? Is that >> I don't know. It's a it's a real and >> I don't know. It's a it's a real and >> I don't know. It's a it's a real and unusual skill set. Very unusual. I don't unusual skill set. Very unusual. I don't unusual skill set. Very unusual. I don't know how he how he can remember cuz it's know how he how he can remember cuz it's know how he how he can remember cuz it's complicated. It's not like in a rock complicated. It's not like in a rock complicated. It's not like in a rock song there might be four lines in a song there might be four lines in a song there might be four lines in a verse. pretty easy to remember. But rap verse. pretty easy to remember. But rap verse. pretty easy to remember. But rap songs have a lot of words and it's songs have a lot of words and it's songs have a lot of words and it's complicated. complicated. complicated. But so that was that was the first thing But so that was that was the first thing But so that was that was the first thing that really I would say separated him that really I would say separated him that really I would say separated him from everyone else from me is that his from everyone else from me is that his from everyone else from me is that his process was totally different than process was totally different than process was totally different than anyone else I ever worked with. anyone else I ever worked with. anyone else I ever worked with. >> Which is interesting cuz other people >> Which is interesting cuz other people >> Which is interesting cuz other people might arrive at the same outcome but might arrive at the same outcome but might arrive at the same outcome but take a different journey there. They take a different journey there. They take a different journey there. They might, you know, write lots of things might, you know, write lots of things might, you know, write lots of things down and down and down and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So there's not a correct process. No, >> So there's not a correct process. No, >> So there's not a correct process. No, there's ne with all of these things that there's ne with all of these things that there's ne with all of these things that aren't there's never a right way. aren't there's never a right way. aren't there's never a right way. What what works for one person doesn't What what works for one person doesn't What what works for one person doesn't mean it works for someone else. And mean it works for someone else. And mean it works for someone else. And that's one of the real dangers of that's one of the real dangers of that's one of the real dangers of getting advice from people is someone getting advice from people is someone getting advice from people is someone tells you, I wrote it this way and it tells you, I wrote it this way and it tells you, I wrote it this way and it was really successful, so this is how was really successful, so this is how was really successful, so this is how you have to do it.

you have to do it. you have to do it. >> But that's not true. That it might work, >> But that's not true. That it might work, >> But that's not true. That it might work, but that might be the way that it works but that might be the way that it works but that might be the way that it works for that guy, not you. M for that guy, not you. M for that guy, not you. M >> so always be wary when getting advice >> so always be wary when getting advice >> so always be wary when getting advice because again people give you advice because again people give you advice because again people give you advice with the best intentions but they're with the best intentions but they're with the best intentions but they're giving you advice based on their story giving you advice based on their story giving you advice based on their story not your story. not your story. not your story. So where do we get advice from? So where do we get advice from? So where do we get advice from? >> I would say listening to a lot of stuff. >> I would say listening to a lot of stuff. >> I would say listening to a lot of stuff. It depends on what what the sub like It depends on what what the sub like It depends on what what the sub like what where we're what what medium we're what where we're what what medium we're what where we're what what medium we're working in. But I would swim deeply in working in. But I would swim deeply in working in. But I would swim deeply in that medium, whatever it is, that medium, whatever it is, that medium, whatever it is, and then really listen to what's going and then really listen to what's going and then really listen to what's going on in you. It it has to do with you, on in you. It it has to do with you, on in you. It it has to do with you, how you see it. how you see it. how you see it. It's an internal um it's an internal It's an internal um it's an internal It's an internal um it's an internal compass that tells you where to go. compass that tells you where to go. compass that tells you where to go. And I'll also say there may not only be And I'll also say there may not only be And I'll also say there may not only be one answer. There may not even be a one answer. There may not even be a one answer. There may not even be a right answer. And that's where it really right answer. And that's where it really right answer. And that's where it really comes down to like this internal feeling comes down to like this internal feeling comes down to like this internal feeling of I would take as I would hear as much of I would take as I would hear as much of I would take as I would hear as much information from as many people as information from as many people as information from as many people as possible hopefully conflicting possible hopefully conflicting possible hopefully conflicting and then really check in and take as and then really check in and take as and then really check in and take as much time as it takes to internally get much time as it takes to internally get much time as it takes to internally get to a point of where you know what you to a point of where you know what you to a point of where you know what you know what the right answer is. You know know what the right answer is. You know know what the right answer is. You know what the right answer for you is. M what the right answer for you is. M what the right answer for you is. M >> there is no right answer but you know

>> there is no right answer but you know >> there is no right answer but you know what the right answer for you is what the right answer for you is what the right answer for you is and that's what you always want to get and that's what you always want to get and that's what you always want to get to what is the right answer for me how to what is the right answer for me how to what is the right answer for me how do I know do I know do I know >> you'll know it and if you don't know it >> you'll know it and if you don't know it >> you'll know it and if you don't know it you don't have enough there's not enough you don't have enough there's not enough you don't have enough there's not enough you haven't done enough research yet you haven't done enough research yet you haven't done enough research yet because you it has to come from you it because you it has to come from you it because you it has to come from you it has to come from you of has to come from you of has to come from you of I've gotten to the point I've done I've gotten to the point I've done I've gotten to the point I've done enough homework enough homework enough homework of conflicting information where I can listen to myself and I feel where I can listen to myself and I feel good about it. good about it. good about it. >> One of the ways um that that noise that >> One of the ways um that that noise that >> One of the ways um that that noise that voice inside of us gets conflicted is we voice inside of us gets conflicted is we voice inside of us gets conflicted is we have our parents. I I know your story. I have our parents. I I know your story. I have our parents. I I know your story. I know your parents, you know, they kind know your parents, you know, they kind know your parents, you know, they kind of thought maybe you'd be a doctor, but of thought maybe you'd be a doctor, but of thought maybe you'd be a doctor, but you didn't like needles. So, they were you didn't like needles. So, they were you didn't like needles. So, they were like, "Okay, he can be a lawyer." A lot like, "Okay, he can be a lawyer." A lot like, "Okay, he can be a lawyer." A lot of people say they have that voice, my of people say they have that voice, my of people say they have that voice, my parents. and and it's sometimes hard to parents. and and it's sometimes hard to parents. and and it's sometimes hard to untangle what voices me and my wishes untangle what voices me and my wishes untangle what voices me and my wishes >> versus external. >> versus external. >> versus external. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I remember when I first went to college >> I remember when I first went to college >> I remember when I first went to college and moved out of my parents house, it and moved out of my parents house, it and moved out of my parents house, it took me probably a year took me probably a year took me probably a year to understand to understand to understand what in my head was me and what in my what in my head was me and what in my what in my head was me and what in my head was them. I was definitely confused head was them. I was definitely confused head was them. I was definitely confused but had to create that space or lucky but had to create that space or lucky but had to create that space or lucky enough to create that space to to allow enough to create that space to to allow enough to create that space to to allow it to happen. Again, I didn't go to it to happen. Again, I didn't go to it to happen. Again, I didn't go to college for that to happen. But in college for that to happen. But in college for that to happen. But in college, being outside of the house,

college, being outside of the house, college, being outside of the house, I started to understand who I was and who they were and where we who I was and who they were and where we were aligned and where we saw the world were aligned and where we saw the world were aligned and where we saw the world differently. And it was fine, but it differently. And it was fine, but it differently. And it was fine, but it took time because I didn't know that. I took time because I didn't know that. I took time because I didn't know that. I didn't know that. If you ask a lot of didn't know that. If you ask a lot of didn't know that. If you ask a lot of people who they want to be or in your people who they want to be or in your people who they want to be or in your case in music, you know, what what music case in music, you know, what what music case in music, you know, what what music they want to make or what their goal is, they want to make or what their goal is, they want to make or what their goal is, they will say things that they don't they will say things that they don't they will say things that they don't realize have come from somewhere else. realize have come from somewhere else. realize have come from somewhere else. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Happens a lot in my life. I'll I'll >> Happens a lot in my life. I'll I'll >> Happens a lot in my life. I'll I'll interview someone. I'll say, "What do interview someone. I'll say, "What do interview someone. I'll say, "What do you want to be?" And they'll say you want to be?" And they'll say you want to be?" And they'll say something just arbitrary and big and something just arbitrary and big and something just arbitrary and big and fancy. fancy. fancy. >> And then often times when you like ask >> And then often times when you like ask >> And then often times when you like ask >> more questions, there's nothing behind >> more questions, there's nothing behind >> more questions, there's nothing behind it. it. it. >> So they got it from Instagram or they >> So they got it from Instagram or they >> So they got it from Instagram or they got it from their parents. How how how got it from their parents. How how how got it from their parents. How how how can we cultivate a better understanding can we cultivate a better understanding can we cultivate a better understanding of um of our own truth? It's like when I of um of our own truth? It's like when I of um of our own truth? It's like when I played you that bad song, you started played you that bad song, you started played you that bad song, you started trying to you went in search of truth. trying to you went in search of truth. trying to you went in search of truth. How can I How can I know? How can I pass How can I How can I know? How can I pass How can I How can I know? How can I pass out what is me and my alignment and what out what is me and my alignment and what out what is me and my alignment and what is inherited from somewhere else? I I as is inherited from somewhere else? I I as is inherited from somewhere else? I I as I said before, I think you need to find I said before, I think you need to find I said before, I think you need to find some practices that ground you in some practices that ground you in some practices that ground you in yourself. Meditation is a great one. I'm yourself. Meditation is a great one. I'm yourself. Meditation is a great one. I'm sure there are others, sure there are others, sure there are others, but you have to get in touch with you but you have to get in touch with you but you have to get in touch with you with you. Maybe therapy works for some with you. Maybe therapy works for some with you. Maybe therapy works for some people.

people. people. Well, you got to get to where who you Well, you got to get to where who you Well, you got to get to where who you are. are. are. >> It's a it's a it's a big job. It's a big >> It's a it's a it's a big job. It's a big >> It's a it's a it's a big job. It's a big job. And it's not it's not a quick job. And it's not it's not a quick job. And it's not it's not a quick There's no quick fix. I remember the There's no quick fix. I remember the There's no quick fix. I remember the first time I ever first time I ever first time I ever was in a talk therapy session. I was in a talk therapy session. I was in a talk therapy session. I remember not knowing how to talk. I remember not knowing how to talk. I remember not knowing how to talk. I didn't know how I felt about anything. didn't know how I felt about anything. didn't know how I felt about anything. I didn't know how to talk. I didn't know I didn't know how to talk. I didn't know I didn't know how to talk. I didn't know about my inner state at all. And only about my inner state at all. And only about my inner state at all. And only through repetition and doing it over through repetition and doing it over through repetition and doing it over time and you start understanding. So time and you start understanding. So time and you start understanding. So it's just another skill set to develop. it's just another skill set to develop. it's just another skill set to develop. I never looked inward. Even with all the I never looked inward. Even with all the I never looked inward. Even with all the years of meditation, I never looked years of meditation, I never looked years of meditation, I never looked inward. inward. inward. >> Are you there now? >> Are you there now? >> Are you there now? >> I think so. >> I think so. >> I think so. >> Do you know who you are? >> Do you know who you are? >> Do you know who you are? >> I think I don't know that I could >> I think I don't know that I could >> I think I don't know that I could explain it, but I feel like I feel like explain it, but I feel like I feel like explain it, but I feel like I feel like I am I am I am uh grounded in myself and I feel it uh grounded in myself and I feel it uh grounded in myself and I feel it pretty clearly. pretty clearly. pretty clearly. What's the difference between when you What's the difference between when you What's the difference between when you weren't and now that you are? Is it a weren't and now that you are? Is it a weren't and now that you are? Is it a feeling or is it is there a symptom? Is feeling or is it is there a symptom? Is feeling or is it is there a symptom? Is it happiness?

it happiness? it happiness? I would say there's more of a No, there I would say there's more of a No, there I would say there's more of a No, there was happiness there, too. So, it's it's was happiness there, too. So, it's it's was happiness there, too. So, it's it's not happiness. There was happiness in not happiness. There was happiness in not happiness. There was happiness in in the time that I didn't know who I in the time that I didn't know who I in the time that I didn't know who I was. I probably didn't know why, but I I was. I probably didn't know why, but I I was. I probably didn't know why, but I I remember being happy. remember being happy. remember being happy. Um, it's not happiness. Yeah, I think I come back to the word Yeah, I think I come back to the word knowingness just like knowingness just like knowingness just like you feel it. When you ask me something, I can tell When you ask me something, I can tell you how I feel. I can tell you how I see you how I feel. I can tell you how I see you how I feel. I can tell you how I see it. I don't know if I was able to do it. I don't know if I was able to do it. I don't know if I was able to do that before. that before. that before. >> I'm talking about when I was young. I I >> I'm talking about when I was young. I I >> I'm talking about when I was young. I I don't know if I could do that. don't know if I could do that. don't know if I could do that. >> Are you telling me >> Are you telling me >> Are you telling me >> I still like the things I liked. My >> I still like the things I liked. My >> I still like the things I liked. My taste was still my taste, but I don't taste was still my taste, but I don't taste was still my taste, but I don't think I could um I don't know that I could access it as I don't know that I could access it as well as I can now. well as I can now. well as I can now. >> Is happiness a goal to aim for?

>> Is happiness a goal to aim for? >> Is happiness a goal to aim for? >> Well, I like happiness. I I don't think >> Well, I like happiness. I I don't think >> Well, I like happiness. I I don't think it's a goal, but but I I definitely it's a goal, but but I I definitely it's a goal, but but I I definitely would rather be happy than not. Joyful would rather be happy than not. Joyful would rather be happy than not. Joyful is beautiful. Um I I I think maybe the is beautiful. Um I I I think maybe the is beautiful. Um I I I think maybe the word is peace. Getting to a point of word is peace. Getting to a point of word is peace. Getting to a point of cuz peace like resting in peace cuz peace like resting in peace cuz peace like resting in peace seems like a really good state. And I guess when things get if things And I guess when things get if things get too high, there's always the other get too high, there's always the other get too high, there's always the other side, side, side, you know, you know, you know, >> like even if if I if I find myself in a >> like even if if I if I find myself in a >> like even if if I if I find myself in a really great mood, which does happen really great mood, which does happen really great mood, which does happen sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, >> sometimes the next day I'm just in a bad >> sometimes the next day I'm just in a bad >> sometimes the next day I'm just in a bad mood. And it almost feels like it's a mood. And it almost feels like it's a mood. And it almost feels like it's a it's a maybe it's a chemical thing. it's a maybe it's a chemical thing. it's a maybe it's a chemical thing. Maybe if you burn if you really use the Maybe if you burn if you really use the Maybe if you burn if you really use the feel-good chemicals, feel-good chemicals, feel-good chemicals, maybe there's a deficit the next day. I maybe there's a deficit the next day. I maybe there's a deficit the next day. I don't know. I don't know how it works, don't know. I don't know how it works, don't know. I don't know how it works, but it feels like if everything's cool but it feels like if everything's cool but it feels like if everything's cool and if that keeps going, I like that. An and if that keeps going, I like that. An and if that keeps going, I like that. An artist that is uh very familiar with the artist that is uh very familiar with the artist that is uh very familiar with the highs and the lows, one of my favorite highs and the lows, one of my favorite highs and the lows, one of my favorite artists is is Kanye. And you've worked artists is is Kanye. And you've worked artists is is Kanye. And you've worked with Kanye. I I want to ask the same with Kanye. I I want to ask the same with Kanye. I I want to ask the same question about what made him different, question about what made him different, question about what made him different, what makes him brilliant in your point what makes him brilliant in your point what makes him brilliant in your point of view.

of view. of view. He's um He's um He's um I've said this to him. I've said this to him. I've said this to him. I'm totally fearless when it comes to I'm totally fearless when it comes to I'm totally fearless when it comes to art. art. art. He's totally fearless always. He's He's totally fearless always. He's He's totally fearless always. He's fearless in life. I'm not fearless in fearless in life. I'm not fearless in fearless in life. I'm not fearless in life. I'm a good collaborator for him at life. I'm a good collaborator for him at life. I'm a good collaborator for him at when it comes to art because I am when it comes to art because I am when it comes to art because I am fearless at art and [clears throat] not fearless at art and [clears throat] not fearless at art and [clears throat] not everybody is. everybody is. everybody is. But he's always fearless and it's um But he's always fearless and it's um But he's always fearless and it's um it's really something to behold. it's really something to behold. it's really something to behold. Great strength. Great strength. Great strength. It's rare to have that many um successes It's rare to have that many um successes It's rare to have that many um successes when you're taking such big risk. That's when you're taking such big risk. That's when you're taking such big risk. That's what fascinates me about him. what fascinates me about him. what fascinates me about him. >> Yeah. I don't agree with that >> Yeah. I don't agree with that >> Yeah. I don't agree with that >> really. No, no, no, no. I I think the >> really. No, no, no, no. I I think the >> really. No, no, no, no. I I think the risk and the success go hand in hand. risk and the success go hand in hand. risk and the success go hand in hand. It's only through the risk that the It's only through the risk that the It's only through the risk that the greatness is shown. greatness is shown. greatness is shown. So it's not possible to sort of produce So it's not possible to sort of produce So it's not possible to sort of produce more of the same and still be considered more of the same and still be considered more of the same and still be considered a great. a great. a great. I don't think so.

I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't know. It It doesn't seem right I don't know. It It doesn't seem right I don't know. It It doesn't seem right to me. It feels like there's this edge. to me. It feels like there's this edge. to me. It feels like there's this edge. There's a tight rope and you're walking There's a tight rope and you're walking There's a tight rope and you're walking on the tight rope and if you make it, on the tight rope and if you make it, on the tight rope and if you make it, it's really good. And if you don't make it's really good. And if you don't make it's really good. And if you don't make it, it's not so good. But the only it, it's not so good. But the only it, it's not so good. But the only choice is the tightroppe. choice is the tightroppe. choice is the tightroppe. >> The risk. >> The risk. >> The risk. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then you will achieve greatness. >> And then you will achieve greatness. >> And then you will achieve greatness. >> Well, if you if you make it, yes. If you >> Well, if you if you make it, yes. If you >> Well, if you if you make it, yes. If you make it, yes. But that's the risk. And make it, yes. But that's the risk. And make it, yes. But that's the risk. And it's the risk that I it's the risk that I it's the risk that I I wholeheartedly support. I wholeheartedly support. I wholeheartedly support. Wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Because that's where it's at. Like >> Because that's where it's at. Like >> Because that's where it's at. Like that's if the goal is to make the be that's if the goal is to make the be that's if the goal is to make the be most beautiful thing you can and to most beautiful thing you can and to most beautiful thing you can and to self-express in the purest way. It's a razor's edge walk. It's a razor's edge walk. There's nothing ordinary about it. It's There's nothing ordinary about it. It's There's nothing ordinary about it. It's beyond ordinary.

beyond ordinary. beyond ordinary. There's nothing normal about it. Normal There's nothing normal about it. Normal There's nothing normal about it. Normal is nothing to aspire to. is nothing to aspire to. is nothing to aspire to. Average is nothing to aspire to. Average is nothing to aspire to. Average is nothing to aspire to. If you're looking for greatness, If you're looking for greatness, If you're looking for greatness, sometimes eggs get broken. But that's sometimes eggs get broken. But that's sometimes eggs get broken. But that's just but that's what comes with it. just but that's what comes with it. just but that's what comes with it. That's how it works. That's how it works. That's how it works. Are we all cut out for greatness? Cuz it Are we all cut out for greatness? Cuz it Are we all cut out for greatness? Cuz it comes with a cost. And walking tight comes with a cost. And walking tight comes with a cost. And walking tight ropes is not for everybody. ropes is not for everybody. ropes is not for everybody. >> Yeah. I think we all have potential. And >> Yeah. I think we all have potential. And >> Yeah. I think we all have potential. And when I say greatness, it's like we all when I say greatness, it's like we all when I say greatness, it's like we all have potential to be the greatest have potential to be the greatest have potential to be the greatest version of ourselves. version of ourselves. version of ourselves. You know, we we can be you can be the You know, we we can be you can be the You know, we we can be you can be the best version of you. best version of you. best version of you. I don't know what that is compared to I don't know what that is compared to I don't know what that is compared to other people who are great at other other people who are great at other other people who are great at other things. things. things. You know, I I'm it doesn't mean you'll You know, I I'm it doesn't mean you'll You know, I I'm it doesn't mean you'll be the best F1 driver, be the best F1 driver, be the best F1 driver, but your light can shine brighter than but your light can shine brighter than but your light can shine brighter than anyone else doing what you do. And I'm anyone else doing what you do. And I'm anyone else doing what you do. And I'm into that. I support that. I want to see into that. I support that. I want to see into that. I support that. I want to see that.

that. that. >> With these great people, this big list >> With these great people, this big list >> With these great people, this big list of people that I have in front of me of people that I have in front of me of people that I have in front of me that you've worked with, I mean, it's that you've worked with, I mean, it's that you've worked with, I mean, it's just this endless endless almost just this endless endless almost just this endless endless almost unbelievable list. Everybody from like unbelievable list. Everybody from like unbelievable list. Everybody from like Justin Timberlake to the Red Hot Chili Justin Timberlake to the Red Hot Chili Justin Timberlake to the Red Hot Chili Peppers to helping I mean Kanye on his Peppers to helping I mean Kanye on his Peppers to helping I mean Kanye on his the record Runaway, which is one of the the record Runaway, which is one of the the record Runaway, which is one of the most incredible records of all time to most incredible records of all time to most incredible records of all time to um we've talked about Jay-Z and System um we've talked about Jay-Z and System um we've talked about Jay-Z and System of a Down and AC/DC and MC Jagger and I of a Down and AC/DC and MC Jagger and I of a Down and AC/DC and MC Jagger and I mean there's a endless list. When I look mean there's a endless list. When I look mean there's a endless list. When I look at it, I go, "Were these people all at it, I go, "Were these people all at it, I go, "Were these people all great?" great?" great?" >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And were they great from birth or or is >> And were they great from birth or or is >> And were they great from birth or or is are they ordinary people that made a are they ordinary people that made a are they ordinary people that made a decision? decision? decision? >> They're I would say they're ordinary >> They're I would say they're ordinary >> They're I would say they're ordinary people who made a decision. Maybe some people who made a decision. Maybe some people who made a decision. Maybe some of them had some particular gifts. of them had some particular gifts. of them had some particular gifts. Um but others were ordinary and Um but others were ordinary and Um but others were ordinary and cultivated a gift. That list, they're cultivated a gift. That list, they're cultivated a gift. That list, they're not special. They're not the only ones not special. They're not the only ones not special. They're not the only ones like that, like that, like that, but they really but they really but they really rode that wave. I think of Eminem as a rode that wave. I think of Eminem as a rode that wave. I think of Eminem as a good example. Eminem is someone who's good example. Eminem is someone who's good example. Eminem is someone who's always writing. He's always writing always writing. He's always writing always writing. He's always writing because he wants to be able, he wants to because he wants to be able, he wants to because he wants to be able, he wants to be the best he could possibly be, and be the best he could possibly be, and be the best he could possibly be, and he's insanely obsessive about that. So, he's insanely obsessive about that. So, he's insanely obsessive about that. So, his entire life is focused on sitting in his entire life is focused on sitting in his entire life is focused on sitting in a notepad writing all day and all night.

a notepad writing all day and all night. a notepad writing all day and all night. It's all he does. That's what makes him him. That's what makes him him. >> Even if he's not publishing an album or >> Even if he's not publishing an album or >> Even if he's not publishing an album or >> doesn't matter. >> doesn't matter. >> doesn't matter. It's not he's not writing. I asked him It's not he's not writing. I asked him It's not he's not writing. I asked him one point looking at his notebooks. He's one point looking at his notebooks. He's one point looking at his notebooks. He's like, "Is all this going to, you know, like, "Is all this going to, you know, like, "Is all this going to, you know, is are all these?" He's like, "No, no, is are all these?" He's like, "No, no, is are all these?" He's like, "No, no, no. 99% of this stuff no one will ever no. 99% of this stuff no one will ever no. 99% of this stuff no one will ever see. I just want to be good. I want to see. I just want to be good. I want to see. I just want to be good. I want to I'm practicing. I'm I want to get better I'm practicing. I'm I want to get better I'm practicing. I'm I want to get better at what I do." He's in training always. at what I do." He's in training always. at what I do." He's in training always. If you think of it like an athlete, you If you think of it like an athlete, you If you think of it like an athlete, you know, there are athletes who there are know, there are athletes who there are know, there are athletes who there are some athletes who train in the offseason some athletes who train in the offseason some athletes who train in the offseason and there are some who don't. and there are some who don't. and there are some who don't. [clears throat] And the ones who train [clears throat] And the ones who train [clears throat] And the ones who train in the offseason are usually better and in the offseason are usually better and in the offseason are usually better and usually have a longer career. It's like usually have a longer career. It's like usually have a longer career. It's like that. When we sat down, you asked me a that. When we sat down, you asked me a that. When we sat down, you asked me a question. You said, um, you said, question. You said, um, you said, question. You said, um, you said, "Stephen, you you're doing this podcast. "Stephen, you you're doing this podcast. "Stephen, you you're doing this podcast. Have the guests changed you?" And much Have the guests changed you?" And much Have the guests changed you?" And much of what I've shown here is how you've of what I've shown here is how you've of what I've shown here is how you've changed people's lives through being a changed people's lives through being a changed people's lives through being a coach or a producer or however you might coach or a producer or however you might coach or a producer or however you might define that. My question to you is, can define that. My question to you is, can define that. My question to you is, can you give me a couple of example of you give me a couple of example of you give me a couple of example of artists that for whatever reason artists that for whatever reason artists that for whatever reason fundamentally changed you?

fundamentally changed you? fundamentally changed you? >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is Johnny >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is Johnny >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is Johnny Cash. Cash. Cash. >> Johnny Cash. Um because I got to spend >> Johnny Cash. Um because I got to spend >> Johnny Cash. Um because I got to spend time around someone who was so time around someone who was so time around someone who was so humble and quiet and smart and didn't humble and quiet and smart and didn't humble and quiet and smart and didn't offer much. Like like if you didn't if offer much. Like like if you didn't if offer much. Like like if you didn't if you didn't draw him out, he wouldn't say you didn't draw him out, he wouldn't say you didn't draw him out, he wouldn't say anything. anything. anything. But anything you asked him about, he But anything you asked him about, he But anything you asked him about, he knew about and had a really incredible knew about and had a really incredible knew about and had a really incredible point of view. But he wasn't um point of view. But he wasn't um point of view. But he wasn't um he didn't have a need to let you know he didn't have a need to let you know he didn't have a need to let you know that that that >> it was all going on inside and he was a >> it was all going on inside and he was a >> it was all going on inside and he was a beautiful spiritual person and I loved beautiful spiritual person and I loved beautiful spiritual person and I loved him and I feel like him and I feel like him and I feel like my life was really improved getting to my life was really improved getting to my life was really improved getting to spend so much time with someone so so spend so much time with someone so so spend so much time with someone so so inspiring. That's one. inspiring. That's one. inspiring. That's one. >> What is the um emotion there? >> What is the um emotion there? >> What is the um emotion there? >> Where's >> Where's >> Where's >> There was some emotion there. >> There was some emotion there. >> There was some emotion there. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's beautiful man. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's beautiful man. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's beautiful man. Beautiful man.

he was the ultimate craftsman. So in the he was the ultimate craftsman. So in the Beatles you have John and Paul and John Beatles you have John and Paul and John Beatles you have John and Paul and John was more of a raw nerve who was more of a raw nerve who was more of a raw nerve who tore his chest open and led with his tore his chest open and led with his tore his chest open and led with his heart and then Paul was more of a almost heart and then Paul was more of a almost heart and then Paul was more of a almost like a like a like a a savant of music like like a crafts a savant of music like like a crafts a savant of music like like a crafts person. Paul could take anything and person. Paul could take anything and person. Paul could take anything and make it good. make it good. make it good. John was like a raw nerve who could just John was like a raw nerve who could just John was like a raw nerve who could just show his soul and they're two very show his soul and they're two very show his soul and they're two very different skills and together that's different skills and together that's different skills and together that's what makes it the Beatles. Also the fact what makes it the Beatles. Also the fact what makes it the Beatles. Also the fact that George and Ring are incredible. I that George and Ring are incredible. I that George and Ring are incredible. I mean even with you know even as great as mean even with you know even as great as mean even with you know even as great as as Paul and John are, it's only the as Paul and John are, it's only the as Paul and John are, it's only the Beatles when it's the four of them. Beatles when it's the four of them. Beatles when it's the four of them. Paul is the craftsman. Paul knows all Paul is the craftsman. Paul knows all Paul is the craftsman. Paul knows all the parts. Paul knows how to put it the parts. Paul knows how to put it the parts. Paul knows how to put it together. He was the only one of the together. He was the only one of the together. He was the only one of the Beatles who knew how to do that other Beatles who knew how to do that other Beatles who knew how to do that other than George Martin whose job was to do than George Martin whose job was to do than George Martin whose job was to do that. But Paul understood that side of that. But Paul understood that side of that. But Paul understood that side of it. [gasps] it. [gasps] it. [gasps] Tom Petty was like Paul. He could do he Tom Petty was like Paul. He could do he Tom Petty was like Paul. He could do he could play anything.

could play anything. could play anything. He saw all ways around it. He knew how He saw all ways around it. He knew how He saw all ways around it. He knew how to make it. to make it. to make it. And in addition to that was a great And in addition to that was a great And in addition to that was a great songwriter. So he had kind of what was songwriter. So he had kind of what was songwriter. So he had kind of what was great about John and Paul both in him. great about John and Paul both in him. great about John and Paul both in him. So being around him was really So being around him was really So being around him was really inspiring. Also as a record producer I inspiring. Also as a record producer I inspiring. Also as a record producer I learned a lot from learned a lot from learned a lot from getting to work with him. I offered a getting to work with him. I offered a getting to work with him. I offered a outside perspective. I was younger outside perspective. I was younger outside perspective. I was younger different. So I I brought something to different. So I I brought something to different. So I I brought something to the table, but I learned a tremendous the table, but I learned a tremendous the table, but I learned a tremendous amount because at the time that I worked amount because at the time that I worked amount because at the time that I worked with him, I had only worked with artists with him, I had only worked with artists with him, I had only worked with artists who had, you know, made their first who had, you know, made their first who had, you know, made their first albums, like new artists. And he was a albums, like new artists. And he was a albums, like new artists. And he was a very established, very established, very established, brilliant studio recording artist. So I brilliant studio recording artist. So I brilliant studio recording artist. So I got to learn a lot working with him. got to learn a lot working with him. got to learn a lot working with him. >> What did he teach you? if there had to >> What did he teach you? if there had to >> What did he teach you? if there had to just be one lesson you pulled out. just be one lesson you pulled out. just be one lesson you pulled out. >> One of the things he talked about was >> One of the things he talked about was >> One of the things he talked about was everything always had to be in time and everything always had to be in time and everything always had to be in time and in tune. You have to understand every in tune. You have to understand every in tune. You have to understand every word of the vocals.

word of the vocals. word of the vocals. Seems like an obvious thing, but so many Seems like an obvious thing, but so many Seems like an obvious thing, but so many records you can't understand every word. records you can't understand every word. records you can't understand every word. And he would listen back and he's like, And he would listen back and he's like, And he would listen back and he's like, "Ah, this word is supposed to be plural "Ah, this word is supposed to be plural "Ah, this word is supposed to be plural and you can't hear the s. I have to and you can't hear the s. I have to and you can't hear the s. I have to re-record it or I have to maybe we could re-record it or I have to maybe we could re-record it or I have to maybe we could punch in the S because if you can't punch in the S because if you can't punch in the S because if you can't understand it, it loses something in understand it, it loses something in understand it, it loses something in translation. You have to understand translation. You have to understand translation. You have to understand every word. Um so timing, tune, every word. Um so timing, tune, every word. Um so timing, tune, um um um he also was another person who would he also was another person who would he also was another person who would work forever on it until it was right. work forever on it until it was right. work forever on it until it was right. He would he would he was not at all He would he would he was not at all He would he would he was not at all lazy. He would never want it to be done. lazy. He would never want it to be done. lazy. He would never want it to be done. The first album we worked on together The first album we worked on together The first album we worked on together was called Wild Flowers. And I think we was called Wild Flowers. And I think we was called Wild Flowers. And I think we probably worked on it, not every day, probably worked on it, not every day, probably worked on it, not every day, but we worked on it over 2 years, but we worked on it over 2 years, but we worked on it over 2 years, probably 2 and 1/2 years. It's a long probably 2 and 1/2 years. It's a long probably 2 and 1/2 years. It's a long time for an album at that point in time time for an album at that point in time time for an album at that point in time especially. It was a long time, but especially. It was a long time, but especially. It was a long time, but there was no hurry. It was just like, there was no hurry. It was just like, there was no hurry. It was just like, oh, we're making progress. Let's keep oh, we're making progress. Let's keep oh, we're making progress. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. And um so I learned a lot from going. And um so I learned a lot from going. And um so I learned a lot from him also about patience.

him also about patience. him also about patience. >> Some might say that's perfectionism. And >> Some might say that's perfectionism. And >> Some might say that's perfectionism. And people think of perfectionism as a form people think of perfectionism as a form people think of perfectionism as a form of procrastination. And yeah, there was of procrastination. And yeah, there was of procrastination. And yeah, there was no procrastination in it. And I've been no procrastination in it. And I've been no procrastination in it. And I've been around both. Like I've been around around both. Like I've been around around both. Like I've been around procrastinating artists, too. It's a procrastinating artists, too. It's a procrastinating artists, too. It's a whole different thing. whole different thing. whole different thing. >> How do you know? How do you know if >> How do you know? How do you know if >> How do you know? How do you know if you're a perfectionist or a you're a perfectionist or a you're a perfectionist or a procrastinator? Is there a symptom? procrastinator? Is there a symptom? procrastinator? Is there a symptom? >> Yeah. The the real proc the real >> Yeah. The the real proc the real >> Yeah. The the real proc the real procrastinators get to the point usually procrastinators get to the point usually procrastinators get to the point usually has to do with has to do with has to do with being afraid to put it out into the being afraid to put it out into the being afraid to put it out into the world. So there are some artists I know, world. So there are some artists I know, world. So there are some artists I know, famous artists, you you know who they famous artists, you you know who they famous artists, you you know who they are, who haven't put out album, haven't are, who haven't put out album, haven't are, who haven't put out album, haven't put out an album for 10 years. I think put out an album for 10 years. I think put out an album for 10 years. I think the longer you wait, the harder it gets the longer you wait, the harder it gets the longer you wait, the harder it gets in general. in general. in general. >> Why >> Why >> Why the pressure like the longer you wait, the pressure like the longer you wait, the pressure like the longer you wait, the more it feels like it can never live the more it feels like it can never live the more it feels like it can never live up to what the expectation is. up to what the expectation is. up to what the expectation is. It's a difficult position to get into. It's a difficult position to get into. It's a difficult position to get into. And the perfectionist, And the perfectionist, And the perfectionist, their reason for delay is not to do with their reason for delay is not to do with their reason for delay is not to do with fear. It's to do with something else. Is fear. It's to do with something else. Is fear. It's to do with something else. Is that what you're saying? Hard to know.

that what you're saying? Hard to know. that what you're saying? Hard to know. Hard to know. I don't know. Hard to know. I don't know. Hard to know. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. So, those are two artists that you've So, those are two artists that you've So, those are two artists that you've mentioned that changed you, Johnny and mentioned that changed you, Johnny and mentioned that changed you, Johnny and um Tom. Is there any others that front um Tom. Is there any others that front um Tom. Is there any others that front of mind? of mind? of mind? >> Let me see. >> Let me see. >> Let me see. Adele, Adele, Adele, >> she's really good. >> she's really good. >> she's really good. >> I mean, she's amazing. She's like myth. >> I mean, she's amazing. She's like myth. >> I mean, she's amazing. She's like myth. I feel like everything she does is I feel like everything she does is I feel like everything she does is great. great. great. When she sings, When she sings, When she sings, everything stops. And she can do it over everything stops. And she can do it over everything stops. And she can do it over and over again. And it's always great. and over again. And it's always great. and over again. And it's always great. It's not like some singers work for a It's not like some singers work for a It's not like some singers work for a long time singing a bunch takes piecing long time singing a bunch takes piecing long time singing a bunch takes piecing them together to get the good one. them together to get the good one. them together to get the good one. She'll sing a song 30 times in a row and She'll sing a song 30 times in a row and She'll sing a song 30 times in a row and it'll be great 30 times. Might not be it'll be great 30 times. Might not be it'll be great 30 times. Might not be the same 30 times, but it'll always be the same 30 times, but it'll always be the same 30 times, but it'll always be great. great. great. >> You produced um her 21 album, >> You produced um her 21 album, >> You produced um her 21 album, >> worked on songs on there, >> worked on songs on there, >> worked on songs on there, >> some of that. >> some of that. >> some of that. >> Did you know she was great when you met >> Did you know she was great when you met >> Did you know she was great when you met her? Was there something that made her her? Was there something that made her her? Was there something that made her distinctive from these other great distinctive from these other great distinctive from these other great artists? at a time when most pop artists artists? at a time when most pop artists artists? at a time when most pop artists at that time didn't write their own at that time didn't write their own at that time didn't write their own songs.

songs. songs. She was more like a throwback to the 70s She was more like a throwback to the 70s She was more like a throwback to the 70s singer songwriters. singer songwriters. singer songwriters. So, there was something about her. I So, there was something about her. I So, there was something about her. I also got to work with Shakira, who also also got to work with Shakira, who also also got to work with Shakira, who also writes her own songs, and there's writes her own songs, and there's writes her own songs, and there's something about those pop artists who something about those pop artists who something about those pop artists who write their own songs that it's write their own songs that it's write their own songs that it's different than someone who can just different than someone who can just different than someone who can just deliver a song well. deliver a song well. deliver a song well. Um, so I feel like it's a little bit of Um, so I feel like it's a little bit of Um, so I feel like it's a little bit of an anomaly in a pop world where so much an anomaly in a pop world where so much an anomaly in a pop world where so much of it is more I want to say of it is more I want to say of it is more I want to say manufactured, meaning a bunch of people manufactured, meaning a bunch of people manufactured, meaning a bunch of people work on the song and then the singer work on the song and then the singer work on the song and then the singer sings the song. sings the song. sings the song. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Adele, a key piece is that it always >> Adele, a key piece is that it always >> Adele, a key piece is that it always comes from her and you can feel that in comes from her and you can feel that in comes from her and you can feel that in the songs and it's more personal and I the songs and it's more personal and I the songs and it's more personal and I love that. love that. love that. >> You can feel it. I've seen her live as >> You can feel it. I've seen her live as >> You can feel it. I've seen her live as well. feels like this the first time well. feels like this the first time well. feels like this the first time she's ever sung the song when you we she's ever sung the song when you we she's ever sung the song when you we experience her life. Rick, what is the experience her life. Rick, what is the experience her life. Rick, what is the most important thing we haven't talked most important thing we haven't talked most important thing we haven't talked about that we shouldn't talked about about that we shouldn't talked about about that we shouldn't talked about should have talked about as it relates should have talked about as it relates should have talked about as it relates to creativity and the art of making to creativity and the art of making to creativity and the art of making great things or good things or whatever great things or good things or whatever great things or good things or whatever the measurement stick might be.

the measurement stick might be. the measurement stick might be. >> I think we've kind of covered it. The >> I think we've kind of covered it. The >> I think we've kind of covered it. The the the main idea really is don't listen the the main idea really is don't listen the the main idea really is don't listen to what anyone tells you. to what anyone tells you. to what anyone tells you. Be true to yourself. Be true to yourself. Be true to yourself. Work hard. Never give up. Don't quit. Work hard. Never give up. Don't quit. Work hard. Never give up. Don't quit. and just keep going and and don't put and just keep going and and don't put and just keep going and and don't put undue pressure on your art. Find a way undue pressure on your art. Find a way undue pressure on your art. Find a way to live that doesn't put pressure on to live that doesn't put pressure on to live that doesn't put pressure on your art so that you could be totally your art so that you could be totally your art so that you could be totally free in the things that you're making free in the things that you're making free in the things that you're making for them to be the dream version. And for them to be the dream version. And for them to be the dream version. And hopefully at some point hopefully at some point hopefully at some point the dream version takes over and it the dream version takes over and it the dream version takes over and it becomes your whole life, not just your becomes your whole life, not just your becomes your whole life, not just your passion. passion. passion. Why did you make this documentary with Why did you make this documentary with Why did you make this documentary with Jay-Z? Jay-Z? Jay-Z? >> Well, I had made a documentary with Paul >> Well, I had made a documentary with Paul >> Well, I had made a documentary with Paul McCartney a few years ago that was six McCartney a few years ago that was six McCartney a few years ago that was six episodes. And the reason for that one episodes. And the reason for that one episodes. And the reason for that one was was was there were no I never I never saw any there were no I never I never saw any there were no I never I never saw any documentaries about either Paul or the documentaries about either Paul or the documentaries about either Paul or the Beatles about musicianship. They were Beatles about musicianship. They were Beatles about musicianship. They were always about either the songwriting or always about either the songwriting or always about either the songwriting or about Beatlemania.

about Beatlemania. about Beatlemania. And I thought without the musicianship And I thought without the musicianship And I thought without the musicianship there wouldn't be Beatle Mania. And yes, there wouldn't be Beatle Mania. And yes, there wouldn't be Beatle Mania. And yes, you need Yes, the songs you couldn't you need Yes, the songs you couldn't you need Yes, the songs you couldn't deliver the songs without the deliver the songs without the deliver the songs without the musicianship. So, I thought there was musicianship. So, I thought there was musicianship. So, I thought there was this big void in the in the story of this big void in the in the story of this big void in the in the story of Paul if you were to make a list of the Paul if you were to make a list of the Paul if you were to make a list of the best bass players of all time. Paul best bass players of all time. Paul best bass players of all time. Paul belongs at number one, but most people belongs at number one, but most people belongs at number one, but most people wouldn't even put him on the list wouldn't even put him on the list wouldn't even put him on the list because you don't think of him as a bass because you don't think of him as a bass because you don't think of him as a bass player. You think of him as Beetle Paul. player. You think of him as Beetle Paul. player. You think of him as Beetle Paul. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] And I just thought there was an And I just thought there was an And I just thought there was an opportunity to um shed light on opportunity to um shed light on opportunity to um shed light on something that I love. something that I love. something that I love. And And And through I thought that was going to be a through I thought that was going to be a through I thought that was going to be a more traditional documentary, but it more traditional documentary, but it more traditional documentary, but it turned into a different kind of turned into a different kind of turned into a different kind of documentary. Happened by itself. Wasn't documentary. Happened by itself. Wasn't documentary. Happened by itself. Wasn't pre-planned. pre-planned. pre-planned. Turned into this interesting thing that Turned into this interesting thing that Turned into this interesting thing that was different than anything else that was different than anything else that was different than anything else that had been made with Paul or about the had been made with Paul or about the had been made with Paul or about the Beatles. And people liked it. Beatles. And people liked it. Beatles. And people liked it. It felt like a dream for me to be part It felt like a dream for me to be part It felt like a dream for me to be part of it. And after that happened, I was of it. And after that happened, I was of it. And after that happened, I was thinking about who else is I want to say thinking about who else is I want to say thinking about who else is I want to say misunderstood because that that's kind misunderstood because that that's kind misunderstood because that that's kind of what it is. Like of what it is. Like of what it is. Like yes, Paul's great and everyone knows yes, Paul's great and everyone knows yes, Paul's great and everyone knows Paul's great, but people don't think of Paul's great, but people don't think of Paul's great, but people don't think of him as a great musician. They think of him as a great musician. They think of him as a great musician. They think of him as something else.

him as something else. him as something else. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I started thinking about Jay-Z. >> And I started thinking about Jay-Z. >> And I started thinking about Jay-Z. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Because Jay-Z is thought of today as >> Because Jay-Z is thought of today as >> Because Jay-Z is thought of today as this incredible businessman. And he's uh this incredible businessman. And he's uh this incredible businessman. And he's uh you think of him as billionaire you think of him as billionaire you think of him as billionaire businessman businessman businessman um behind the scenes genius um behind the scenes genius um behind the scenes genius married to a famous singer. Most of what we think about him isn't Most of what we think about him isn't poet. That's not the first thing you poet. That's not the first thing you poet. That's not the first thing you think of. think of. think of. And even the people who like Jay-Z might And even the people who like Jay-Z might And even the people who like Jay-Z might not really know the depth of the not really know the depth of the not really know the depth of the writing. And I thought it's an writing. And I thought it's an writing. And I thought it's an interesting story. Like the lyrics are interesting story. Like the lyrics are interesting story. Like the lyrics are really intricate and really difficult really intricate and really difficult really intricate and really difficult and it's astounding what he does and and it's astounding what he does and and it's astounding what he does and [clears throat and snorts] he's famous [clears throat and snorts] he's famous [clears throat and snorts] he's famous but and and that's the reason he's but and and that's the reason he's but and and that's the reason he's famous but nobody knows it. People see famous but nobody knows it. People see famous but nobody knows it. People see him in a different light. So I thought him in a different light. So I thought him in a different light. So I thought shedding light on the poet, the shedding light on the poet, the shedding light on the poet, the lyricist, the artistry of Jay-Z was a lyricist, the artistry of Jay-Z was a lyricist, the artistry of Jay-Z was a really interesting thing. And luckily I really interesting thing. And luckily I really interesting thing. And luckily I shared the idea with him and when he shared the idea with him and when he shared the idea with him and when he when I told him the idea he said when I told him the idea he said when I told him the idea he said he said I like it a lot. I'm not going he said I like it a lot. I'm not going he said I like it a lot. I'm not going to say yes because if I say yes we're to say yes because if I say yes we're to say yes because if I say yes we're going to make it and I don't know so going to make it and I don't know so going to make it and I don't know so I'll let you know. He said okay. And I'll let you know. He said okay. And I'll let you know. He said okay. And then we didn't talk it about again for then we didn't talk it about again for then we didn't talk it about again for probably a year.

probably a year. probably a year. And then And then And then I called a friend of his and I said you I called a friend of his and I said you I called a friend of his and I said you know I shared this idea with Jay a year know I shared this idea with Jay a year know I shared this idea with Jay a year ago. but we haven't discussed it since. ago. but we haven't discussed it since. ago. but we haven't discussed it since. What do you think? He's like, call him What do you think? He's like, call him What do you think? He's like, call him and ask him. I said, I feel like I and ask him. I said, I feel like I and ask him. I said, I feel like I already told him the idea. Don't you already told him the idea. Don't you already told him the idea. Don't you think he should just call and ask tell think he should just call and ask tell think he should just call and ask tell me he wants to do it? He's like, if you me he wants to do it? He's like, if you me he wants to do it? He's like, if you don't call him, it's not going to don't call him, it's not going to don't call him, it's not going to happen. He's like, just call him and ask happen. He's like, just call him and ask happen. He's like, just call him and ask him. And he'll and he'll either say yes him. And he'll and he'll either say yes him. And he'll and he'll either say yes or no, but at least you could ask him. or no, but at least you could ask him. or no, but at least you could ask him. It's still I heard that that was good It's still I heard that that was good It's still I heard that that was good information given to me of what to do. information given to me of what to do. information given to me of what to do. And I probably didn't call for 6 months, And I probably didn't call for 6 months, And I probably didn't call for 6 months, 8 months, just cuz like felt 8 months, just cuz like felt 8 months, just cuz like felt uncomfortable, really discussed it. uncomfortable, really discussed it. uncomfortable, really discussed it. And eventually, I can't remember if it And eventually, I can't remember if it And eventually, I can't remember if it happened in a call or if I ran into him happened in a call or if I ran into him happened in a call or if I ran into him or if I went to see him. Can't remember. or if I went to see him. Can't remember. or if I went to see him. Can't remember. But the next time we talked about, he's But the next time we talked about, he's But the next time we talked about, he's like, "Yeah, let's do it." I said, like, "Yeah, let's do it." I said, like, "Yeah, let's do it." I said, "Okay." Then we did this. "Okay." Then we did this. "Okay." Then we did this. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> It's stunning. It's stunning, I think, >> It's stunning. It's stunning, I think, >> It's stunning. It's stunning, I think, because it's different. So different in because it's different. So different in because it's different. So different in a way that's quite surprising. And um so a way that's quite surprising. And um so a way that's quite surprising. And um so a couple of observations I had is things a couple of observations I had is things a couple of observations I had is things are usually shot in a certain way. It are usually shot in a certain way. It are usually shot in a certain way. It felt like you had again once again felt like you had again once again felt like you had again once again abandoned the rules of how to shoot abandoned the rules of how to shoot abandoned the rules of how to shoot something like that. Even like the color something like that. Even like the color something like that. Even like the color the the color grading the like sort of the the color grading the like sort of the the color grading the like sort of black and white um color grade that I black and white um color grade that I black and white um color grade that I saw on the screen. And then some of the saw on the screen. And then some of the saw on the screen. And then some of the angles were a bit off. I'm like that's angles were a bit off. I'm like that's angles were a bit off. I'm like that's not how you shoot an interview. But for not how you shoot an interview. But for not how you shoot an interview. But for some reason, it felt like I was spying some reason, it felt like I was spying some reason, it felt like I was spying on a personal conversation.

on a personal conversation. on a personal conversation. >> That's what it was. It was a deeply >> That's what it was. It was a deeply >> That's what it was. It was a deeply personal conversation. personal conversation. personal conversation. And And And in all the years of seeing interviews in all the years of seeing interviews in all the years of seeing interviews with Jay-Z, he doesn't do so many, but with Jay-Z, he doesn't do so many, but with Jay-Z, he doesn't do so many, but the ones that you've seen, the ones that you've seen, the ones that you've seen, >> he's never like that. >> he's never like that. >> he's never like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He's never like that. So, and this is >> He's never like that. So, and this is >> He's never like that. So, and this is really who he is. Like you really after really who he is. Like you really after really who he is. Like you really after you watch this, you'll really know who you watch this, you'll really know who you watch this, you'll really know who Jay-Z is, which is incredible. It's an Jay-Z is, which is incredible. It's an Jay-Z is, which is incredible. It's an incredible privilege to have that point incredible privilege to have that point incredible privilege to have that point of view of a real intimate view into of view of a real intimate view into of view of a real intimate view into someone so great. someone so great. someone so great. >> Clearly, he felt very safe with you as >> Clearly, he felt very safe with you as >> Clearly, he felt very safe with you as well because you do get that real side well because you do get that real side well because you do get that real side of Jay-Z that I think is really rare. of Jay-Z that I think is really rare. of Jay-Z that I think is really rare. Um, speaking of incredible things, this Um, speaking of incredible things, this Um, speaking of incredible things, this book is also an incredible thing. I know book is also an incredible thing. I know book is also an incredible thing. I know that in part because so many of my that in part because so many of my that in part because so many of my guests have come here and talked about guests have come here and talked about guests have come here and talked about it. Really? Oh, so many of them. and so it. Really? Oh, so many of them. and so it. Really? Oh, so many of them. and so many people hold it up as their favorite many people hold it up as their favorite many people hold it up as their favorite book on creativity. I think because it's book on creativity. I think because it's book on creativity. I think because it's challenging. Uh I think which is the challenging. Uh I think which is the challenging. Uh I think which is the essence of Rick Rubin in some respects essence of Rick Rubin in some respects essence of Rick Rubin in some respects is to be a challenging coach. This book is to be a challenging coach. This book is to be a challenging coach. This book I think finds itself being the same I think finds itself being the same I think finds itself being the same which is a very challenging coach. So I which is a very challenging coach. So I which is a very challenging coach. So I think it came out in 2023. I'm going to think it came out in 2023. I'm going to think it came out in 2023. I'm going to link it below for anyone that hasn't got link it below for anyone that hasn't got link it below for anyone that hasn't got it. If you haven't got it, I think it it. If you haven't got it, I think it it. If you haven't got it, I think it might be the challenge you need. And I might be the challenge you need. And I might be the challenge you need. And I don't necessarily think it's a book don't necessarily think it's a book don't necessarily think it's a book necessarily about creativity. It's it's necessarily about creativity. It's it's necessarily about creativity. It's it's really just I consider it to be a really just I consider it to be a really just I consider it to be a philosophy book. Dare I say.

philosophy book. Dare I say. philosophy book. Dare I say. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Tarot cards. Some people noticed I think >> Tarot cards. Some people noticed I think >> Tarot cards. Some people noticed I think that you have is it 73 that you have is it 73 that you have is it 73 >> 78 >> 78 >> 78 >> 78 >> 78 >> 78 we call them chapters we call them chapters we call them chapters >> areas of thought >> areas of thought >> areas of thought >> areas of thought in this book and that >> areas of thought in this book and that >> areas of thought in this book and that tarot cards have 78. tarot cards have 78. tarot cards have 78. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Is there a link? >> Is there a link? >> Is there a link? >> There is and there isn't. I'll tell you >> There is and there isn't. I'll tell you >> There is and there isn't. I'll tell you the link and it's a pretty funny story. I think there were 63 areas of thought I think there were 63 areas of thought when I first thought of areas of thought when I first thought of areas of thought when I first thought of areas of thought and giving them names. and giving them names. and giving them names. There was this period where the book There was this period where the book There was this period where the book wasn't separated into the ideas and it wasn't separated into the ideas and it wasn't separated into the ideas and it was just a lot of pages of ideas was just a lot of pages of ideas was just a lot of pages of ideas >> and then >> and then >> and then tried to move them after years of tried to move them after years of tried to move them after years of unsuccessful unsuccessful unsuccessful um organizational methods um organizational methods um organizational methods got to the point again through a lot of got to the point again through a lot of got to the point again through a lot of failed experiments and some successful failed experiments and some successful failed experiments and some successful experiments experiments experiments moved from moved from moved from 1400 pages into 1400 pages into 1400 pages into a little bit of a shape with the when a little bit of a shape with the when a little bit of a shape with the when the areas of thought came to be.

the areas of thought came to be. the areas of thought came to be. And there were I I say I think there And there were I I say I think there And there were I I say I think there were 63. I have them they're handwritten were 63. I have them they're handwritten were 63. I have them they're handwritten and I I have a photograph of them in my and I I have a photograph of them in my and I I have a photograph of them in my phone. The original 63 areas of thought. phone. The original 63 areas of thought. phone. The original 63 areas of thought. And then once we separated all the ideas And then once we separated all the ideas And then once we separated all the ideas into the 63, there ended up being more. into the 63, there ended up being more. into the 63, there ended up being more. And I think there ended up being And I think there ended up being And I think there ended up being something like 80 something like 80 something like 80 82 or 83 84. They were in the 80s. And 82 or 83 84. They were in the 80s. And 82 or 83 84. They were in the 80s. And then the book was done and there were then the book was done and there were then the book was done and there were 80s something of them. And I have a 80s something of them. And I have a 80s something of them. And I have a collaborator named Neil who is a friend collaborator named Neil who is a friend collaborator named Neil who is a friend of mine who lived in my neighborhood, of mine who lived in my neighborhood, of mine who lived in my neighborhood, great writer who wanted it who was great writer who wanted it who was great writer who wanted it who was helped me from the beginning although helped me from the beginning although helped me from the beginning although not in an official capacity until the not in an official capacity until the not in an official capacity until the end. He he was involved the whole way end. He he was involved the whole way end. He he was involved the whole way and I was working with another another and I was working with another another and I was working with another another writer and it just didn't work out. And writer and it just didn't work out. And writer and it just didn't work out. And then we got to the point where there then we got to the point where there then we got to the point where there were these 83 or 84 areas of thought and were these 83 or 84 areas of thought and were these 83 or 84 areas of thought and it was all done and everybody was happy. it was all done and everybody was happy. it was all done and everybody was happy. And I remember calling my friend Neil And I remember calling my friend Neil And I remember calling my friend Neil and saying, "Okay, book's done. We have and saying, "Okay, book's done. We have and saying, "Okay, book's done. We have 83 areas of thought. 83 areas of thought. 83 areas of thought. I'd rather it be 78."

I'd rather it be 78." I'd rather it be 78." He's like, "What are you talking about? He's like, "What are you talking about? He's like, "What are you talking about? What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I want What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I want What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I want it to be related to something. it to be related to something. it to be related to something. The tarot cards are 78. [snorts] The tarot cards are 78. [snorts] The tarot cards are 78. [snorts] If we had 103, I would say let's make it If we had 103, I would say let's make it If we had 103, I would say let's make it 108 to get it up to 108 because that's 108 to get it up to 108 because that's 108 to get it up to 108 because that's another There are certain numbers that another There are certain numbers that another There are certain numbers that are good numbers. 78, are good numbers. 78, are good numbers. 78, 108, 144 is a good one. It's some good 108, 144 is a good one. It's some good 108, 144 is a good one. It's some good numbers. I want it to have a reference numbers. I want it to have a reference numbers. I want it to have a reference to something else in the world of a to something else in the world of a to something else in the world of a number. number. number. And he and he's like, And he and he's like, And he and he's like, >> why? >> why? >> why? >> That's just that's how I feel. That's >> That's just that's how I feel. That's >> That's just that's how I feel. That's how I want it. how I want it. how I want it. And I remember him saying, he's like, And I remember him saying, he's like, And I remember him saying, he's like, "You're insane." He's like, "You've been "You're insane." He's like, "You've been "You're insane." He's like, "You've been working on this book for 8 years. working on this book for 8 years. working on this book for 8 years. Now you want it to be randomly 78 Now you want it to be randomly 78 Now you want it to be randomly 78 instead of 83. It's good. Be happy. It's instead of 83. It's good. Be happy. It's instead of 83. It's good. Be happy. It's good. Be done." I said, "How? We have to good. Be done." I said, "How? We have to good. Be done." I said, "How? We have to get it figure out how to get make it get it figure out how to get make it get it figure out how to get make it 78." 78." 78." >> Why? Just a feeling. So listen, what >> Why? Just a feeling. So listen, what >> Why? Just a feeling. So listen, what happens next? I have an assistant at happens next? I have an assistant at happens next? I have an assistant at that time named Dylan.

that time named Dylan. that time named Dylan. And And And we work on the 83 sections we work on the 83 sections we work on the 83 sections independently. So they're almost like independently. So they're almost like independently. So they're almost like separate essays. And when we would work separate essays. And when we would work separate essays. And when we would work on it, we would work on let's work on on it, we would work on let's work on on it, we would work on let's work on 37, whatever it is, whatever the title 37, whatever it is, whatever the title 37, whatever it is, whatever the title is, and just work on that section. We is, and just work on that section. We is, and just work on that section. We would work on each section would work on each section would work on each section independently. independently. independently. And I said, "Okay, put them all here's And I said, "Okay, put them all here's And I said, "Okay, put them all here's the order. Put them all in order." And the order. Put them all in order." And the order. Put them all in order." And he put them in order. And the next day he put them in order. And the next day he put them in order. And the next day came you were in Italy. I remember this came you were in Italy. I remember this came you were in Italy. I remember this is the day after the conversation with is the day after the conversation with is the day after the conversation with Neil where he told me I was crazy and he Neil where he told me I was crazy and he Neil where he told me I was crazy and he said it's the weirdest thing. I put them said it's the weirdest thing. I put them said it's the weirdest thing. I put them in order and there were 78 sections. I in order and there were 78 sections. I in order and there were 78 sections. I said no there were 83 yesterday. He's said no there were 83 yesterday. He's said no there were 83 yesterday. He's like now there's 78. like now there's 78. like now there's 78. I said where are the others? He said I said where are the others? He said I said where are the others? He said there are no others. there are no others. there are no others. That happened. That happened. That happened. So, did somebody miscount or something So, did somebody miscount or something So, did somebody miscount or something or or or >> don't know, nobody knows. But we were >> don't know, nobody knows. But we were >> don't know, nobody knows. But we were sure they were 80s something and it sure they were 80s something and it sure they were 80s something and it turned and I wanted it to be 78 and the turned and I wanted it to be 78 and the turned and I wanted it to be 78 and the next day there were 78 and nobody did next day there were 78 and nobody did next day there were 78 and nobody did anything.

anything. anything. [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] Someday you're going to Neil's going to Someday you're going to Neil's going to Someday you're going to Neil's going to find four chapters and not mention it. find four chapters and not mention it. find four chapters and not mention it. Maybe or maybe you call excited like I Maybe or maybe you call excited like I Maybe or maybe you call excited like I told you you were crazy. Rick, we have a told you you were crazy. Rick, we have a told you you were crazy. Rick, we have a closing tradition where the last guest closing tradition where the last guest closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not leaves a question for the next guest not leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. knowing who they're leaving it for. knowing who they're leaving it for. If you could make a phone call and you If you could make a phone call and you If you could make a phone call and you had 60 seconds to call anybody and it had 60 seconds to call anybody and it had 60 seconds to call anybody and it had to be an apology, who would you call had to be an apology, who would you call had to be an apology, who would you call and what would you say and why? It's a hard question for me to answer It's a hard question for me to answer for several reasons. One, I almost never for several reasons. One, I almost never for several reasons. One, I almost never make a phone call and I'm not really a make a phone call and I'm not really a make a phone call and I'm not really a phone person. phone person. phone person. >> So, the only reason I would call >> So, the only reason I would call >> So, the only reason I would call somebody would it would have to be some somebody would it would have to be some somebody would it would have to be some sort of an emergency situation. And I feel like And I feel like there are not a lot of outstanding there are not a lot of outstanding there are not a lot of outstanding apologies to make. apologies to make. apologies to make. >> What about a thank you? >> What about a thank you? >> What about a thank you? >> A thank you would be great. I could call >> A thank you would be great. I could call >> A thank you would be great. I could call anyone and thank them. anyone and thank them. anyone and thank them. >> If you could only make one last phone >> If you could only make one last phone >> If you could only make one last phone call to say thank you.

call to say thank you. call to say thank you. >> A one last phone call. I would probably >> A one last phone call. I would probably >> A one last phone call. I would probably call Moodielle, my wife, and just thank call Moodielle, my wife, and just thank call Moodielle, my wife, and just thank her for being in my life. and maybe her for being in my life. and maybe her for being in my life. and maybe either her or my child to just thank either her or my child to just thank either her or my child to just thank them for them for them for bringing so much light into my life. bringing so much light into my life. bringing so much light into my life. >> How did that change you? >> How did that change you? >> How did that change you? >> It's It's different. Totally different. >> It's It's different. Totally different. >> It's It's different. Totally different. Um it's beautiful being in a relationship. it's beautiful being in a relationship. We travel as a pack. We go everywhere We travel as a pack. We go everywhere We travel as a pack. We go everywhere together. We've We've never been apart, together. We've We've never been apart, together. We've We've never been apart, I don't think. I think maybe in the 15 I don't think. I think maybe in the 15 I don't think. I think maybe in the 15 years that I've been with my wife, we've years that I've been with my wife, we've years that I've been with my wife, we've maybe spent three nights apart maybe spent three nights apart maybe spent three nights apart >> in 15 years, something like that. >> in 15 years, something like that. >> in 15 years, something like that. >> And >> And >> And we're we're we're everything we do, we travel together. everything we do, we travel together. everything we do, we travel together. This this is a long time that I'm away This this is a long time that I'm away This this is a long time that I'm away from them. So, I'm looking forward to from them. So, I'm looking forward to from them. So, I'm looking forward to getting back with them getting back with them getting back with them >> and becoming a father.

>> and becoming a father. >> and becoming a father. >> It's just so much fun. He I I get to see >> It's just so much fun. He I I get to see >> It's just so much fun. He I I get to see the world in uh the world in uh the world in uh I get to see the things that he's I get to see the things that he's I get to see the things that he's excited about that remind me of things I excited about that remind me of things I excited about that remind me of things I was excited about. And was excited about. And was excited about. And I get to show him things that I like and I get to show him things that I like and I get to show him things that I like and sometimes he likes them and sometimes he sometimes he likes them and sometimes he sometimes he likes them and sometimes he says things that I I can imagine how he says things that I I can imagine how he says things that I I can imagine how he how he knows them. There's a real wisdom how he knows them. There's a real wisdom how he knows them. There's a real wisdom that's uh it's baffling. that's uh it's baffling. that's uh it's baffling. It's just fun. It's just fun. It's just fun. >> You talk in the book about how children >> You talk in the book about how children >> You talk in the book about how children are the great reminder of what, you are the great reminder of what, you are the great reminder of what, you know, creativity might be at at its know, creativity might be at at its know, creativity might be at at its essence. essence. essence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Before we it up. >> Before we it up. >> Before we it up. >> Yeah. And it's the it's the thing is >> Yeah. And it's the it's the thing is >> Yeah. And it's the it's the thing is that when you're a little kid, you that when you're a little kid, you that when you're a little kid, you haven't yet no one has told you what you haven't yet no one has told you what you haven't yet no one has told you what you can and can't do yet, how the world can and can't do yet, how the world can and can't do yet, how the world works. You really look at things with works. You really look at things with works. You really look at things with wonder. wonder. wonder. And that's the perspective of a great And that's the perspective of a great And that's the perspective of a great artist. They're they're walking around artist. They're they're walking around artist. They're they're walking around in wonder, in awe of things that maybe in wonder, in awe of things that maybe in wonder, in awe of things that maybe seem ordinary to everyone else, but the seem ordinary to everyone else, but the seem ordinary to everyone else, but the the world is filled with just incredible the world is filled with just incredible the world is filled with just incredible [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] beauty. It's breathtaking. It's beauty. It's breathtaking. It's beauty. It's breathtaking. It's breathtaking. People are amazing. Talk breathtaking. People are amazing. Talk breathtaking. People are amazing. Talk to anyone.

to anyone. to anyone. It's interesting. People are interesting It's interesting. People are interesting It's interesting. People are interesting if you just slow down and really listen. if you just slow down and really listen. if you just slow down and really listen. >> Rick, thank you. Thank you for the >> Rick, thank you. Thank you for the >> Rick, thank you. Thank you for the inspiration and the wisdom and for being inspiration and the wisdom and for being inspiration and the wisdom and for being a challenge and coach to many millions a challenge and coach to many millions a challenge and coach to many millions of creatives all around the world and of creatives all around the world and of creatives all around the world and being fearlessly yourself. Um, this is a being fearlessly yourself. Um, this is a being fearlessly yourself. Um, this is a fantastic book. I'm going to link it fantastic book. I'm going to link it fantastic book. I'm going to link it below for everyone that hasn't yet read below for everyone that hasn't yet read below for everyone that hasn't yet read it. But also the HBO documentary with it. But also the HBO documentary with it. But also the HBO documentary with Jay-Z, the eight part documentary we Jay-Z, the eight part documentary we Jay-Z, the eight part documentary we referenced is out now on HBO. Um, comes referenced is out now on HBO. Um, comes referenced is out now on HBO. Um, comes out on September 18th. So, if you're out on September 18th. So, if you're out on September 18th. So, if you're watching us after that, it's already watching us after that, it's already watching us after that, it's already out. Um, thank you, Rick. out. Um, thank you, Rick. out. Um, thank you, Rick. >> My pleasure. It's on movie in the rest >> My pleasure. It's on movie in the rest >> My pleasure. It's on movie in the rest of the world. of the world. of the world. >> Rick, thank you. >> Rick, thank you. >> Rick, thank you. >> My pleasure. >> My pleasure. >> My pleasure. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you where they know exactly what video you where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and would like to watch next based on AI and would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the all of your viewing behavior. And the all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the algorithm says that this video is the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different perfect video for you. It's different perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check for everybody looking right now. Check for everybody looking right now. Check this video out and I bet you you might this video out and I bet you you might this video out and I bet you you might love