How to Escape Your Obsession with Productivity | TED Intersections

Things that are really important for us Things that are really important for us are not easy. Like getting together with are not easy. Like getting together with are not easy. Like getting together with friends, allowing your kids to go play friends, allowing your kids to go play friends, allowing your kids to go play together without adult supervision. Like together without adult supervision. Like together without adult supervision. Like these are not easy. What's easy is to these are not easy. What's easy is to these are not easy. What's easy is to spend a lot of time on products whose spend a lot of time on products whose spend a lot of time on products whose designers make money when you spend a designers make money when you spend a designers make money when you spend a lot of time on them. Okay, Katherine, what do people get Okay, Katherine, what do people get wrong about productivity? wrong about productivity? wrong about productivity? >> I think we get the whole concept of >> I think we get the whole concept of >> I think we get the whole concept of productivity wrong. To me, I think we productivity wrong. To me, I think we productivity wrong. To me, I think we tend to think that productivity has to tend to think that productivity has to tend to think that productivity has to do with money, that if you use time on do with money, that if you use time on do with money, that if you use time on something and you don't have a something and you don't have a something and you don't have a quantifiable output, in many cases quantifiable output, in many cases quantifiable output, in many cases financial, then it's not worth it, that financial, then it's not worth it, that financial, then it's not worth it, that you weren't productive. And so when I you weren't productive. And so when I you weren't productive. And so when I think about it, I try to think of other think about it, I try to think of other think about it, I try to think of other ways that you can have a productive use ways that you can have a productive use ways that you can have a productive use of your time. For example, like if of your time. For example, like if of your time. For example, like if you're just hanging out with a friend you're just hanging out with a friend you're just hanging out with a friend and you have a great conversation, why and you have a great conversation, why and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive?

is that not considered productive? is that not considered productive? Right? And I'm curious about your Right? And I'm curious about your Right? And I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening, what is thoughts in terms of gardening, what is thoughts in terms of gardening, what is productive, what's not productive? Like productive, what's not productive? Like productive, what's not productive? Like the root of productive is to lead forth the root of productive is to lead forth the root of productive is to lead forth producco if I make it super dorky and go producco if I make it super dorky and go producco if I make it super dorky and go Latin right at the beginning of this Latin right at the beginning of this Latin right at the beginning of this conversation. But I also just get so conversation. But I also just get so conversation. But I also just get so tired of when there's the assumption tired of when there's the assumption tired of when there's the assumption that you need to have an output in or of that you need to have an output in or of that you need to have an output in or of any kind in order to have something be any kind in order to have something be any kind in order to have something be classified as productive. What do you classified as productive. What do you classified as productive. What do you see the connection being between the see the connection being between the see the connection being between the work that you do and the way that you work that you do and the way that you work that you do and the way that you encourage people to garden for the sake encourage people to garden for the sake encourage people to garden for the sake of gardening with our society's of gardening with our society's of gardening with our society's obsession with productivity? I do think obsession with productivity? I do think obsession with productivity? I do think the way that most people garden the way that most people garden the way that most people garden certainly there are some productive certainly there are some productive certainly there are some productive gardeners who are interested in growing gardeners who are interested in growing gardeners who are interested in growing like the most humongous uh pumpkins that like the most humongous uh pumpkins that like the most humongous uh pumpkins that have ever been grown. have ever been grown. have ever been grown. >> It's always pumpkins. >> It's always pumpkins. >> It's always pumpkins. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But most of us do it as a way to get >> But most of us do it as a way to get >> But most of us do it as a way to get away from that culture of productivity away from that culture of productivity away from that culture of productivity as a break as a almost a form of as a break as a almost a form of as a break as a almost a form of self-care or even a practice like yoga self-care or even a practice like yoga self-care or even a practice like yoga and meditation. And so it's just it's a and meditation. And so it's just it's a and meditation. And so it's just it's a healthy way to reconnect to the earth, healthy way to reconnect to the earth, healthy way to reconnect to the earth, to reconnect to ourselves, connect to to reconnect to ourselves, connect to to reconnect to ourselves, connect to all the other organisms that are around all the other organisms that are around all the other organisms that are around us, and allows people to survive and us, and allows people to survive and us, and allows people to survive and thrive in this overly productive world.

thrive in this overly productive world. thrive in this overly productive world. I feel like your work is similar in that I feel like your work is similar in that I feel like your work is similar in that we're all sort of caught up in this we're all sort of caught up in this we're all sort of caught up in this busyness that is hard to escape and it busyness that is hard to escape and it busyness that is hard to escape and it can be hard to remember that we can be hard to remember that we can be hard to remember that we >> need to have fun. Mhm. >> need to have fun. Mhm. >> need to have fun. Mhm. >> And so do you see your work as as >> And so do you see your work as as >> And so do you see your work as as spreading like anti-productivity? spreading like anti-productivity? spreading like anti-productivity? >> Well, I mean again I think it depends >> Well, I mean again I think it depends >> Well, I mean again I think it depends what we think of the definition of what we think of the definition of what we think of the definition of productivity being but I do see fun as a productivity being but I do see fun as a productivity being but I do see fun as a respit from this obsession with respit from this obsession with respit from this obsession with productivity but I also see this productivity but I also see this productivity but I also see this conflict where people will start doing conflict where people will start doing conflict where people will start doing something for fun and then this need for something for fun and then this need for something for fun and then this need for productivity is so deeply ingrained productivity is so deeply ingrained productivity is so deeply ingrained they'll turn it into a side hustle or they'll turn it into a side hustle or they'll turn it into a side hustle or like as a personal example playing like as a personal example playing like as a personal example playing music. Like I don't care about music. Like I don't care about music. Like I don't care about performing music for an audience. I just performing music for an audience. I just performing music for an audience. I just really love playing music, but it's very really love playing music, but it's very really love playing music, but it's very hard to get adults to just get together hard to get adults to just get together hard to get adults to just get together to play instead of saying, "Okay, what's to play instead of saying, "Okay, what's to play instead of saying, "Okay, what's going to be the end product?" Like, going to be the end product?" Like, going to be the end product?" Like, "What's the goal? Are we going to "What's the goal? Are we going to "What's the goal? Are we going to produce something?" Even if it's produce something?" Even if it's produce something?" Even if it's something as, you know, not actually something as, you know, not actually something as, you know, not actually tangible, like a show. tangible, like a show. tangible, like a show. >> Do you have suggestions for how to do >> Do you have suggestions for how to do >> Do you have suggestions for how to do that? I mean, I can't imagine calling my that? I mean, I can't imagine calling my that? I mean, I can't imagine calling my friends and being like, "It's bingo friends and being like, "It's bingo friends and being like, "It's bingo night or or something." But is that night or or something." But is that night or or something." But is that really as easy as it as it sounds? Well, really as easy as it as it sounds? Well, really as easy as it as it sounds? Well, I I don't think it's easy because I I I don't think it's easy because I I I don't think it's easy because I think we all are overscheduled and we think we all are overscheduled and we think we all are overscheduled and we have pretty deep issues when it comes to have pretty deep issues when it comes to have pretty deep issues when it comes to this like drive for quote productivity.

this like drive for quote productivity. this like drive for quote productivity. >> And that is why it can be useful to >> And that is why it can be useful to >> And that is why it can be useful to recognize that fun can help you with recognize that fun can help you with recognize that fun can help you with these other more serious goals that you these other more serious goals that you these other more serious goals that you may have in your life. But I do think it may have in your life. But I do think it may have in your life. But I do think it is easier than we often assume and that is easier than we often assume and that is easier than we often assume and that if you start to think of fun as valuable if you start to think of fun as valuable if you start to think of fun as valuable then it becomes also easier to take the then it becomes also easier to take the then it becomes also easier to take the steps to make it happen. And I remember, steps to make it happen. And I remember, steps to make it happen. And I remember, for example, like when I gave a talk for example, like when I gave a talk for example, like when I gave a talk once, a young woman coming up to me once, a young woman coming up to me once, a young woman coming up to me after my talk and she was saying, "You after my talk and she was saying, "You after my talk and she was saying, "You know, I've had this taco Tuesday night know, I've had this taco Tuesday night know, I've had this taco Tuesday night with my friends for years." And I knew I with my friends for years." And I knew I with my friends for years." And I knew I loved it, but I didn't really realize loved it, but I didn't really realize loved it, but I didn't really realize how valuable it was. I didn't really how valuable it was. I didn't really how valuable it was. I didn't really realize it was almost like a sacred realize it was almost like a sacred realize it was almost like a sacred ritual that I have with my friends ritual that I have with my friends ritual that I have with my friends because it's the time where we let down because it's the time where we let down because it's the time where we let down our guard and we actually connect with our guard and we actually connect with our guard and we actually connect with each other and we really catch up. And each other and we really catch up. And each other and we really catch up. And it's kind of a silly concept, you know, it's kind of a silly concept, you know, it's kind of a silly concept, you know, taco Tuesdays, but actually it's one of taco Tuesdays, but actually it's one of taco Tuesdays, but actually it's one of my favorite moments of the whole week. my favorite moments of the whole week. my favorite moments of the whole week. And it's a break from all the pressure I And it's a break from all the pressure I And it's a break from all the pressure I put myself under and it's a time to put myself under and it's a time to put myself under and it's a time to connect with the people I care about. connect with the people I care about. connect with the people I care about. >> So I think that it's not as hard as you >> So I think that it's not as hard as you >> So I think that it's not as hard as you can have these rituals that aren't that can have these rituals that aren't that can have these rituals that aren't that hard to establish that then take on this hard to establish that then take on this hard to establish that then take on this greater meaning. greater meaning. greater meaning. >> But I do think that given our cultural >> But I do think that given our cultural >> But I do think that given our cultural obsession with productivity and obsession with productivity and obsession with productivity and efficiency and all that like we do need efficiency and all that like we do need efficiency and all that like we do need to step back and say I'm going to carve to step back and say I'm going to carve to step back and say I'm going to carve out time for this.

>> All right. What's one thing people >> All right. What's one thing people should incorporate to have a healthier should incorporate to have a healthier should incorporate to have a healthier and happier life? and happier life? and happier life? >> H I mean I think everybody >> H I mean I think everybody >> H I mean I think everybody everyone should grow tomatoes and everyone should grow tomatoes and everyone should grow tomatoes and milkweed. Everybody. Um milkweed. Everybody. Um milkweed. Everybody. Um >> tell me more. >> tell me more. >> tell me more. >> I think it is such a small gesture. Um >> I think it is such a small gesture. Um >> I think it is such a small gesture. Um but it really can change people's lives. but it really can change people's lives. but it really can change people's lives. Uh growing tomatoes, you can't buy Uh growing tomatoes, you can't buy Uh growing tomatoes, you can't buy tomatoes as good as you can grow them. tomatoes as good as you can grow them. tomatoes as good as you can grow them. They're just absolutely amazing. And so They're just absolutely amazing. And so They're just absolutely amazing. And so you really grow them for yourself, for you really grow them for yourself, for you really grow them for yourself, for your family, for your friends. And your family, for your friends. And your family, for your friends. And growing milkweed is an offering and a growing milkweed is an offering and a growing milkweed is an offering and a way to give back to the many organisms way to give back to the many organisms way to give back to the many organisms around you who are struggling really. around you who are struggling really. around you who are struggling really. And so I think that process right now And so I think that process right now And so I think that process right now when I look at humanity in general, it when I look at humanity in general, it when I look at humanity in general, it really does seem like people feel really does seem like people feel really does seem like people feel isolated and uh even sometimes alienated isolated and uh even sometimes alienated isolated and uh even sometimes alienated from the natural world. And that sort of from the natural world. And that sort of from the natural world. And that sort of gesture, it's a very small gesture of gesture, it's a very small gesture of gesture, it's a very small gesture of providing a gift back to that natural providing a gift back to that natural providing a gift back to that natural world um can be just a very hopeful, world um can be just a very hopeful, world um can be just a very hopeful, very gentle even form of activism for very gentle even form of activism for very gentle even form of activism for people to uh help create the world that people to uh help create the world that people to uh help create the world that they want to see for the future. It's they want to see for the future. It's they want to see for the future. It's really and then and then to be able to really and then and then to be able to really and then and then to be able to watch that, to be able to eat those watch that, to be able to eat those watch that, to be able to eat those tomatoes, to be able to see who visits tomatoes, to be able to see who visits tomatoes, to be able to see who visits those milkeed flowers is really just those milkeed flowers is really just those milkeed flowers is really just absolutely incredible.

absolutely incredible. absolutely incredible. >> That's inspiring. >> That's inspiring. >> That's inspiring. >> Absolutely. There's this bumper sticker >> Absolutely. There's this bumper sticker >> Absolutely. There's this bumper sticker that I see sometimes that says, that I see sometimes that says, that I see sometimes that says, "Planting a garden means believing in "Planting a garden means believing in "Planting a garden means believing in tomorrow." And it's so cheesy, but also tomorrow." And it's so cheesy, but also tomorrow." And it's so cheesy, but also very sweet and very true. There's this very sweet and very true. There's this very sweet and very true. There's this element of you're helping cultivate the element of you're helping cultivate the element of you're helping cultivate the future that you want to create for future that you want to create for future that you want to create for future generations. You're helping to future generations. You're helping to future generations. You're helping to literally grow that future. And I think literally grow that future. And I think literally grow that future. And I think at a time where so many pe people are at a time where so many pe people are at a time where so many pe people are having trouble even imagining the future having trouble even imagining the future having trouble even imagining the future and the future is very uncertain and and the future is very uncertain and and the future is very uncertain and scary, it can be a pretty radical act to scary, it can be a pretty radical act to scary, it can be a pretty radical act to say, I'm going to create this myself. say, I'm going to create this myself. say, I'm going to create this myself. I'm going to go out and do it myself. I'm going to go out and do it myself. I'm going to go out and do it myself. >> I'm curious about how you would >> I'm curious about how you would >> I'm curious about how you would encourage people to be happier and encourage people to be happier and encourage people to be happier and healthier. healthier. healthier. >> I think in many ways I love the >> I think in many ways I love the >> I think in many ways I love the gardening idea. I also think just gardening idea. I also think just gardening idea. I also think just prioritizing fun and that we often think prioritizing fun and that we often think prioritizing fun and that we often think that fun is frivolous or a waste of time that fun is frivolous or a waste of time that fun is frivolous or a waste of time or we think it's irresponsible to or we think it's irresponsible to or we think it's irresponsible to prioritize fun in this crazy world that prioritize fun in this crazy world that prioritize fun in this crazy world that we're living in with so many serious we're living in with so many serious we're living in with so many serious problems. But if you are having fun then problems. But if you are having fun then problems. But if you are having fun then you're filling yourself up with energy. you're filling yourself up with energy. you're filling yourself up with energy. You become much more equipped to deal You become much more equipped to deal You become much more equipped to deal with hard things in your own life and with hard things in your own life and with hard things in your own life and you also become a source of energy for you also become a source of energy for you also become a source of energy for other people other people other people >> and it gives you energy to do stuff to >> and it gives you energy to do stuff to >> and it gives you energy to do stuff to help the world at large. You know, if help the world at large. You know, if help the world at large. You know, if you're sitting on the couch just doom you're sitting on the couch just doom you're sitting on the couch just doom scrolling the news, like you actually scrolling the news, like you actually scrolling the news, like you actually can't even plant a garden. You're not can't even plant a garden. You're not can't even plant a garden. You're not going to play that milkweed because all going to play that milkweed because all going to play that milkweed because all you're doing is filling your mind with you're doing is filling your mind with you're doing is filling your mind with really overwhelming information. And you really overwhelming information. And you really overwhelming information. And you can make an argument that it's important can make an argument that it's important can make an argument that it's important to stay informed, but at what point does to stay informed, but at what point does to stay informed, but at what point does just cross the line to being obsessed just cross the line to being obsessed just cross the line to being obsessed and putting stuff that you have no

and putting stuff that you have no and putting stuff that you have no control over into your head? So, I think control over into your head? So, I think control over into your head? So, I think making a conscious effort to create making a conscious effort to create making a conscious effort to create better boundaries with content like that better boundaries with content like that better boundaries with content like that and say, "What would fill me up, you and say, "What would fill me up, you and say, "What would fill me up, you know, what would light me up?" Because know, what would light me up?" Because know, what would light me up?" Because the more we nourish ourselves, the more the more we nourish ourselves, the more the more we nourish ourselves, the more we can give to others and also the more we can give to others and also the more we can give to others and also the more we'll enjoy our own lives, which we're we'll enjoy our own lives, which we're we'll enjoy our own lives, which we're allowed to do. allowed to do. allowed to do. >> Do you differentiate between fun as this >> Do you differentiate between fun as this >> Do you differentiate between fun as this sort of distinct activity where you're sort of distinct activity where you're sort of distinct activity where you're going and doing a fun thing or do you going and doing a fun thing or do you going and doing a fun thing or do you think that it's more important or think that it's more important or think that it's more important or perhaps both that people should try to perhaps both that people should try to perhaps both that people should try to create fun in the actions that they're create fun in the actions that they're create fun in the actions that they're already having? I think that I would say already having? I think that I would say already having? I think that I would say both, but I always like to distinguish both, but I always like to distinguish both, but I always like to distinguish or point out that I think that fun is a or point out that I think that fun is a or point out that I think that fun is a feeling. It's not a particular activity. feeling. It's not a particular activity. feeling. It's not a particular activity. So my definition of fun is that it's the So my definition of fun is that it's the So my definition of fun is that it's the confluence of three different factors. confluence of three different factors. confluence of three different factors. Playfulness, connection, and flow. And Playfulness, connection, and flow. And Playfulness, connection, and flow. And each of those is wonderful for us on each of those is wonderful for us on each of those is wonderful for us on their own, but when all three are their own, but when all three are their own, but when all three are together, it's this magical state of together, it's this magical state of together, it's this magical state of fun. And I think that you can create it fun. And I think that you can create it fun. And I think that you can create it in two ways. One is to actually figure in two ways. One is to actually figure in two ways. One is to actually figure out your fun magnets, I call them. So out your fun magnets, I call them. So out your fun magnets, I call them. So figure out what the activities or the figure out what the activities or the figure out what the activities or the settings or the people the people are settings or the people the people are settings or the people the people are who are most likely to generate that who are most likely to generate that who are most likely to generate that feeling of fun for you and then carve feeling of fun for you and then carve feeling of fun for you and then carve out time in your busy schedule to out time in your busy schedule to out time in your busy schedule to prioritize those. Another way to prioritize those. Another way to prioritize those. Another way to approach it is to open yourself up to approach it is to open yourself up to approach it is to open yourself up to more spontaneous opportunities for fun more spontaneous opportunities for fun more spontaneous opportunities for fun where you're like, what could I do to where you're like, what could I do to where you're like, what could I do to make myself feel a little more connected make myself feel a little more connected make myself feel a little more connected right now or a little more in flow or right now or a little more in flow or right now or a little more in flow or add a bit of playfulness or delight to add a bit of playfulness or delight to add a bit of playfulness or delight to the situation? And another thing I like the situation? And another thing I like the situation? And another thing I like about defining fun as playful connected about defining fun as playful connected about defining fun as playful connected flow is what you're getting at, which is flow is what you're getting at, which is flow is what you're getting at, which is that if you have that definition in that if you have that definition in that if you have that definition in mind, you can bring a bit of that

mind, you can bring a bit of that mind, you can bring a bit of that attitude to pre-existing situations. attitude to pre-existing situations. attitude to pre-existing situations. Even a work conversation, like even a Even a work conversation, like even a Even a work conversation, like even a Zoom call, you can still bring a little Zoom call, you can still bring a little Zoom call, you can still bring a little bit more levity or a little bit more bit more levity or a little bit more bit more levity or a little bit more connection with people. So, I think it's connection with people. So, I think it's connection with people. So, I think it's kind of a combination of things, but I kind of a combination of things, but I kind of a combination of things, but I think we focus a bit too much on the think we focus a bit too much on the think we focus a bit too much on the idea that it is a specific activity idea that it is a specific activity idea that it is a specific activity because that's when you get into the because that's when you get into the because that's when you get into the whole you have to spend a lot of money whole you have to spend a lot of money whole you have to spend a lot of money to have fun instead of recognizing to have fun instead of recognizing to have fun instead of recognizing there's opportunities around us all the there's opportunities around us all the there's opportunities around us all the time. And the story that I I always have time. And the story that I I always have time. And the story that I I always have in my mind when I think about that is a in my mind when I think about that is a in my mind when I think about that is a anecdote someone told me about his own anecdote someone told me about his own anecdote someone told me about his own memory of a moment that was really fun. memory of a moment that was really fun. memory of a moment that was really fun. This guy told me he spent 45 minutes This guy told me he spent 45 minutes This guy told me he spent 45 minutes sitting on a park bench with his nephew sitting on a park bench with his nephew sitting on a park bench with his nephew having a ton of fun simply trying to having a ton of fun simply trying to having a ton of fun simply trying to catch leaves as they fell off of a tree. catch leaves as they fell off of a tree. catch leaves as they fell off of a tree. >> Oh, how lovely. >> Oh, how lovely. >> Oh, how lovely. >> Yeah. And I said to him, I was like, "Oh >> Yeah. And I said to him, I was like, "Oh >> Yeah. And I said to him, I was like, "Oh my goodness, you just made this very my goodness, you just made this very my goodness, you just made this very literal." Because I always say that, you literal." Because I always say that, you literal." Because I always say that, you know, there's opportunities for fun know, there's opportunities for fun know, there's opportunities for fun floating around us in the air. We just floating around us in the air. We just floating around us in the air. We just need to reach out and grab them. And need to reach out and grab them. And need to reach out and grab them. And here you are literally grabbing leaves here you are literally grabbing leaves here you are literally grabbing leaves and fun out of out of the air. Yeah. Um, and fun out of out of the air. Yeah. Um, and fun out of out of the air. Yeah. Um, so I was grateful to that man. so I was grateful to that man. so I was grateful to that man. >> How do you give up control? >> How do you give up control? >> How do you give up control? >> I think we need to recognize that >> I think we need to recognize that >> I think we need to recognize that ultimately we're not that important. ultimately we're not that important. ultimately we're not that important. We're part of this bigger ecosystem.

We're part of this bigger ecosystem. We're part of this bigger ecosystem. >> Us trying to cling to control >> Us trying to cling to control >> Us trying to cling to control >> isn't really probably going to help >> isn't really probably going to help >> isn't really probably going to help anyone, including ourselves. So, I think anyone, including ourselves. So, I think anyone, including ourselves. So, I think constantly reminding myself of that is constantly reminding myself of that is constantly reminding myself of that is really useful. Um, and also trying to really useful. Um, and also trying to really useful. Um, and also trying to get clearer as the cliche goes, but just get clearer as the cliche goes, but just get clearer as the cliche goes, but just be aware of what you do have control be aware of what you do have control be aware of what you do have control over and what you don't. And then I'd over and what you don't. And then I'd over and what you don't. And then I'd also say I do try in my life to find also say I do try in my life to find also say I do try in my life to find situations in which I can just try to situations in which I can just try to situations in which I can just try to let go of control, you know, not in the let go of control, you know, not in the let go of control, you know, not in the sense of like getting trashed, but more sense of like getting trashed, but more sense of like getting trashed, but more like when can I emotionally just not be like when can I emotionally just not be like when can I emotionally just not be conscientious all the time? I'm conscientious all the time? I'm conscientious all the time? I'm conscientious all the time. conscientious all the time. conscientious all the time. >> Yeah. And so this is not exactly an >> Yeah. And so this is not exactly an >> Yeah. And so this is not exactly an answer to that question, but I have answer to that question, but I have answer to that question, but I have noticed the times for me in which I have noticed the times for me in which I have noticed the times for me in which I have the most fun are the moments in which the most fun are the moments in which the most fun are the moments in which I'm letting go of control and I'm not I'm letting go of control and I'm not I'm letting go of control and I'm not organizing and I'm not responsible for organizing and I'm not responsible for organizing and I'm not responsible for other people and you just have this other people and you just have this other people and you just have this sense of freedom that can be really sense of freedom that can be really sense of freedom that can be really energizing. But how about you? energizing. But how about you? energizing. But how about you? >> I mean I I couldn't agree more. I feel >> I mean I I couldn't agree more. I feel >> I mean I I couldn't agree more. I feel like control can really be a burden. like control can really be a burden. like control can really be a burden. >> Yeah. Right. And that that it really >> Yeah. Right. And that that it really >> Yeah. Right. And that that it really starts with recognizing that and and the starts with recognizing that and and the starts with recognizing that and and the relief that can come when you do uh not relief that can come when you do uh not relief that can come when you do uh not when you give up control. I love to when you give up control. I love to when you give up control. I love to spend a lot of time with old trees spend a lot of time with old trees spend a lot of time with old trees >> or just giant trees.

>> or just giant trees. >> or just giant trees. >> I didn't know where I thought you were >> I didn't know where I thought you were >> I didn't know where I thought you were going with that, but it wasn't with old going with that, but it wasn't with old going with that, but it wasn't with old trees. Okay. trees. Okay. trees. Okay. >> It's always always going towards trees. >> It's always always going towards trees. >> It's always always going towards trees. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um but there is a 400y old white oak in >> Um but there is a 400y old white oak in >> Um but there is a 400y old white oak in a cemetery in the Bronx. Really? a cemetery in the Bronx. Really? a cemetery in the Bronx. Really? >> This tree is massive. is just humongous >> This tree is massive. is just humongous >> This tree is massive. is just humongous >> and it's really obvious when you visit >> and it's really obvious when you visit >> and it's really obvious when you visit this tree who the superior being is. this tree who the superior being is. this tree who the superior being is. It's like I always want to bring an It's like I always want to bring an It's like I always want to bring an offering or something like that and it offering or something like that and it offering or something like that and it >> is so relaxing. It is so just it's sort >> is so relaxing. It is so just it's sort >> is so relaxing. It is so just it's sort of like looking at a mountain or a of like looking at a mountain or a of like looking at a mountain or a canyon or the sky canyon or the sky canyon or the sky >> to feel that smallalness and that >> to feel that smallalness and that >> to feel that smallalness and that insignificantness and it's yeah it's insignificantness and it's yeah it's insignificantness and it's yeah it's just a relief and I think that process just a relief and I think that process just a relief and I think that process of giving up control can really start of giving up control can really start of giving up control can really start with the recognition of how good it with the recognition of how good it with the recognition of how good it feels to not be in charge. feels to not be in charge. feels to not be in charge. >> Yes, it feels really good. >> Yes, it feels really good. >> Yes, it feels really good. >> Yeah. All right. What does play mean to you? Oh, such a What does play mean to you? Oh, such a tough one. Um, I uh struggle. I struggle tough one. Um, I uh struggle. I struggle tough one. Um, I uh struggle. I struggle with this. I have to admit. I uh I have with this. I have to admit. I uh I have with this. I have to admit. I uh I have a 12-year-old and so I do a lot of like a 12-year-old and so I do a lot of like a 12-year-old and so I do a lot of like child play, but when it comes to play child play, but when it comes to play child play, but when it comes to play for me, for me, for me, it's it's much more it's just so much it's it's much more it's just so much it's it's much more it's just so much more difficult to imagine what that more difficult to imagine what that more difficult to imagine what that actually looks like. I do do ceramics. I actually looks like. I do do ceramics. I actually looks like. I do do ceramics. I do gardening. I I do try to create in do gardening. I I do try to create in do gardening. I I do try to create in loose and flow state realms, but I don't

loose and flow state realms, but I don't loose and flow state realms, but I don't know that I would go towards the word know that I would go towards the word know that I would go towards the word play initially. And so I guess I would play initially. And so I guess I would play initially. And so I guess I would love some advice. I would love advice on love some advice. I would love advice on love some advice. I would love advice on how how to play as a sort of even I'm how how to play as a sort of even I'm how how to play as a sort of even I'm very like a whimsical but also neurotic very like a whimsical but also neurotic very like a whimsical but also neurotic person. >> I am Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think >> I am Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think it's really hard to define play and it's really hard to define play and it's really hard to define play and especially for adults. I think I would especially for adults. I think I would especially for adults. I think I would say it's doing things for the sake of say it's doing things for the sake of say it's doing things for the sake of doing them, doing them, doing them, >> doing enjoyable things for the sake of >> doing enjoyable things for the sake of >> doing enjoyable things for the sake of doing them without necessarily needing doing them without necessarily needing doing them without necessarily needing the outcome to be a particular way. I the outcome to be a particular way. I the outcome to be a particular way. I found it useful to think about the the found it useful to think about the the found it useful to think about the the word playfulness as opposed to just word playfulness as opposed to just word playfulness as opposed to just play, which is somehow harder for me to play, which is somehow harder for me to play, which is somehow harder for me to pin down, but having a playful spirit pin down, but having a playful spirit pin down, but having a playful spirit and attitude towards things to me can and attitude towards things to me can and attitude towards things to me can make anything turn into a form of play. make anything turn into a form of play. make anything turn into a form of play. So if you come at life with having kind So if you come at life with having kind So if you come at life with having kind of a light-hearted attitude or not of a light-hearted attitude or not of a light-hearted attitude or not taking too things too seriously or taking too things too seriously or taking too things too seriously or finding ways to laugh or you know finding ways to laugh or you know finding ways to laugh or you know finding ways or situations in which your finding ways or situations in which your finding ways or situations in which your inner critic can be silent that to me is inner critic can be silent that to me is inner critic can be silent that to me is what playfulness means and then you can what playfulness means and then you can what playfulness means and then you can turn any situation into some type of turn any situation into some type of turn any situation into some type of play. But I also think it's interesting.

play. But I also think it's interesting. play. But I also think it's interesting. I remember when I was researching play I remember when I was researching play I remember when I was researching play for my book, The Power of Fun. There was for my book, The Power of Fun. There was for my book, The Power of Fun. There was interesting literature around the idea interesting literature around the idea interesting literature around the idea that a play space can also or play can that a play space can also or play can that a play space can also or play can also be defined as like how you behave also be defined as like how you behave also be defined as like how you behave in a particular situation or sphere that in a particular situation or sphere that in a particular situation or sphere that there's kind of like rules governing there's kind of like rules governing there's kind of like rules governing play that we don't really think about. play that we don't really think about. play that we don't really think about. So like theater is a type of play space. So like theater is a type of play space. So like theater is a type of play space. And And And >> this is actually kind of tying back to >> this is actually kind of tying back to >> this is actually kind of tying back to how do you let go of control? Actually, how do you let go of control? Actually, how do you let go of control? Actually, just putting together is that if you just putting together is that if you just putting together is that if you think about a lot of situations in which think about a lot of situations in which think about a lot of situations in which we play, like even playing sports or we play, like even playing sports or we play, like even playing sports or playing a game, something that's more playing a game, something that's more playing a game, something that's more traditionally thought of as play, traditionally thought of as play, traditionally thought of as play, >> the reason that you can have fun is that >> the reason that you can have fun is that >> the reason that you can have fun is that you can kind of let go a little bit, but you can kind of let go a little bit, but you can kind of let go a little bit, but the reason you can let go is you know the reason you can let go is you know the reason you can let go is you know how you're supposed to behave, how you're supposed to behave, how you're supposed to behave, >> you know, like you there's rules to the >> you know, like you there's rules to the >> you know, like you there's rules to the game, so everyone knows what they can game, so everyone knows what they can game, so everyone knows what they can and can't do. And having that structure and can't do. And having that structure and can't do. And having that structure actually lets people relax a little bit. actually lets people relax a little bit. actually lets people relax a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um which I find interesting to think >> Um which I find interesting to think >> Um which I find interesting to think about. about. about. >> Yeah. It makes me think about >> Yeah. It makes me think about >> Yeah. It makes me think about roughousing. Watching these kids wrestle roughousing. Watching these kids wrestle roughousing. Watching these kids wrestle uh pretty aggressively sometimes worried uh pretty aggressively sometimes worried uh pretty aggressively sometimes worried me initially. I was like, "Oh no, me initially. I was like, "Oh no, me initially. I was like, "Oh no, someone's going to get hurt." But then someone's going to get hurt." But then someone's going to get hurt." But then we went through this whole process of we went through this whole process of we went through this whole process of making sure that they had a word to say making sure that they had a word to say making sure that they had a word to say if it got too rough. And they were if it got too rough. And they were if it got too rough. And they were always checking in with each other and always checking in with each other and always checking in with each other and making sure that uh the other person making sure that uh the other person making sure that uh the other person that they were wrestling with was really that they were wrestling with was really that they were wrestling with was really okay with the, you know, activity that okay with the, you know, activity that okay with the, you know, activity that was happening. And it's given them this was happening. And it's given them this was happening. And it's given them this freedom freedom freedom >> to have. so much more fun in this really >> to have. so much more fun in this really >> to have. so much more fun in this really wild way that they're inclined towards, wild way that they're inclined towards, wild way that they're inclined towards, right?

right? right? >> And um in many realms of school and home >> And um in many realms of school and home >> And um in many realms of school and home life, they're not allowed to behave like life, they're not allowed to behave like life, they're not allowed to behave like that. But once we set those parameters, that. But once we set those parameters, that. But once we set those parameters, they had so much more freedom, they had so much more freedom, they had so much more freedom, >> right? And they would know if someone >> right? And they would know if someone >> right? And they would know if someone went too far. Like then it wouldn't be went too far. Like then it wouldn't be went too far. Like then it wouldn't be play, then it would be too rough. And play, then it would be too rough. And play, then it would be too rough. And like they kind of know that. like they kind of know that. like they kind of know that. >> Maybe play is also just doing things >> Maybe play is also just doing things >> Maybe play is also just doing things because they feel fun. One thing I because they feel fun. One thing I because they feel fun. One thing I learned in my research for my book is learned in my research for my book is learned in my research for my book is that across the animal kingdom, that across the animal kingdom, that across the animal kingdom, scientists have observed play-like scientists have observed play-like scientists have observed play-like behavior and basically insects on up. Oh behavior and basically insects on up. Oh behavior and basically insects on up. Oh yeah. Which is kind of nuts. yeah. Which is kind of nuts. yeah. Which is kind of nuts. >> Bumblebees. Bumblebees are like so >> Bumblebees. Bumblebees are like so >> Bumblebees. Bumblebees are like so playful. playful. playful. >> There was a great study um where they >> There was a great study um where they >> There was a great study um where they like had all these little bumblebees and like had all these little bumblebees and like had all these little bumblebees and these little wooden balls and they had these little wooden balls and they had these little wooden balls and they had this path towards sugar water and the this path towards sugar water and the this path towards sugar water and the bumblebees would, especially younger bumblebees would, especially younger bumblebees would, especially younger bumblebees, would go off to the side and bumblebees, would go off to the side and bumblebees, would go off to the side and just play with balls and then go to the just play with balls and then go to the just play with balls and then go to the path for no reason whatsoever. That's path for no reason whatsoever. That's path for no reason whatsoever. That's amazing. I had not heard that. amazing. I had not heard that. amazing. I had not heard that. >> Just for fun. >> Just for fun. >> Just for fun. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> When you look at bumblebees and you >> When you look at bumblebees and you >> When you look at bumblebees and you think about them as pollinators, think about them as pollinators, think about them as pollinators, >> they are unusually smart and they like >> they are unusually smart and they like >> they are unusually smart and they like puzzles. puzzles. puzzles. >> There's generalist flowers. If you think >> There's generalist flowers. If you think >> There's generalist flowers. If you think of a sunflower, right? It's really open of a sunflower, right? It's really open of a sunflower, right? It's really open and the pollen and the nectar are really and the pollen and the nectar are really and the pollen and the nectar are really accessible. You could be a beetle, you accessible. You could be a beetle, you accessible. You could be a beetle, you could be a butterfly, any any species could be a butterfly, any any species could be a butterfly, any any species can come and get those resources. other can come and get those resources. other can come and get those resources. other flowers like pea flowers or even flowers like pea flowers or even flowers like pea flowers or even something like a gentin or an orchid, something like a gentin or an orchid, something like a gentin or an orchid, you have to know how to solve a puzzle you have to know how to solve a puzzle you have to know how to solve a puzzle in order to get to the pollen and the in order to get to the pollen and the in order to get to the pollen and the nectar.

nectar. nectar. >> And bumblebees are excellent at that. >> And bumblebees are excellent at that. >> And bumblebees are excellent at that. They can they can literally unscrew a They can they can literally unscrew a They can they can literally unscrew a bottle. There's a a research study bottle. There's a a research study bottle. There's a a research study showing that bumblebees can figure that showing that bumblebees can figure that showing that bumblebees can figure that out. And so a lot of flowers have lockin out. And so a lot of flowers have lockin out. And so a lot of flowers have lockin key mechanisms and bumblebees are just key mechanisms and bumblebees are just key mechanisms and bumblebees are just they're curious they're curious they're curious and uh and yeah, they like to have fun. and uh and yeah, they like to have fun. and uh and yeah, they like to have fun. And I wonder if those two elements I And I wonder if those two elements I And I wonder if those two elements I mean it must be an evolutionary mean it must be an evolutionary mean it must be an evolutionary advantage, advantage, advantage, >> right? Right. Yeah. No, I totally agree. >> right? Right. Yeah. No, I totally agree. >> right? Right. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I did not know that. I'm imagining I did not know that. I'm imagining I did not know that. I'm imagining little like escape rooms for bumblebees little like escape rooms for bumblebees little like escape rooms for bumblebees now. now. now. >> I think that's like a whole field of >> I think that's like a whole field of >> I think that's like a whole field of research. research. research. >> You heard it here first. >> You heard it here first. >> You heard it here first. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. In a world designed to make >> All right. In a world designed to make everything as easy as possible, why is everything as easy as possible, why is everything as easy as possible, why is friction an important thing to friction an important thing to friction an important thing to incorporate into your life? Well, I think I would push back on the Well, I think I would push back on the premise of that question, which is that premise of that question, which is that premise of that question, which is that I don't think everything's designed to I don't think everything's designed to I don't think everything's designed to be as easy as possible. And I know what be as easy as possible. And I know what be as easy as possible. And I know what the question is trying to ask, but I do the question is trying to ask, but I do the question is trying to ask, but I do want to push back on that because things want to push back on that because things want to push back on that because things that are really important for us are not that are really important for us are not that are really important for us are not easy. Like, yeah, easy. Like, yeah, easy. Like, yeah, >> getting together with friends or like >> getting together with friends or like >> getting together with friends or like >> allowing your kids to go play together >> allowing your kids to go play together >> allowing your kids to go play together without adult supervision.

without adult supervision. without adult supervision. >> Like, these are not easy. What's easy is >> Like, these are not easy. What's easy is >> Like, these are not easy. What's easy is to spend a lot of time on products whose to spend a lot of time on products whose to spend a lot of time on products whose designers make money when you spend a designers make money when you spend a designers make money when you spend a lot of time on them. Mhm. lot of time on them. Mhm. lot of time on them. Mhm. >> It's very easy to scroll through social >> It's very easy to scroll through social >> It's very easy to scroll through social media. It's very easy to stay on the media. It's very easy to stay on the media. It's very easy to stay on the news, you know. news, you know. news, you know. >> So, I think that >> So, I think that >> So, I think that >> the first thing is to say, well, what >> the first thing is to say, well, what >> the first thing is to say, well, what what actually is easy? And then I would what actually is easy? And then I would what actually is easy? And then I would say the reason that friction is so say the reason that friction is so say the reason that friction is so important is because a lot of the most important is because a lot of the most important is because a lot of the most valuable things in life, first of all, valuable things in life, first of all, valuable things in life, first of all, are a bit harder to achieve or we don't are a bit harder to achieve or we don't are a bit harder to achieve or we don't want to say achieve because that sounds want to say achieve because that sounds want to say achieve because that sounds too productionoriented, but too too productionoriented, but too too productionoriented, but too experience. M experience. M experience. M >> um but then I would also say that it's >> um but then I would also say that it's >> um but then I would also say that it's really important because right now we're really important because right now we're really important because right now we're in a very lopsided situation where you in a very lopsided situation where you in a very lopsided situation where you do have huge companies that are do have huge companies that are do have huge companies that are deliberately removing friction quote deliberately removing friction quote deliberately removing friction quote unquote so that we will spend more and unquote so that we will spend more and unquote so that we will spend more and more time staring at our screens as more time staring at our screens as more time staring at our screens as opposed to being out experiencing the opposed to being out experiencing the opposed to being out experiencing the world. So as an example whenever I help world. So as an example whenever I help world. So as an example whenever I help people break up with their phones I ask people break up with their phones I ask people break up with their phones I ask them what are some of your goals? So them what are some of your goals? So them what are some of your goals? So many people say I want to get back to many people say I want to get back to many people say I want to get back to reading. You know I I really miss reading. You know I I really miss reading. You know I I really miss reading. And I'm like okay well what do reading. And I'm like okay well what do reading. And I'm like okay well what do you do before bed scroll through your you do before bed scroll through your you do before bed scroll through your phone? and I use my phone as an alarm phone? and I use my phone as an alarm phone? and I use my phone as an alarm clock. And I'm like, "Okay, well, if you clock. And I'm like, "Okay, well, if you clock. And I'm like, "Okay, well, if you take your phone out of your bedroom, take your phone out of your bedroom, take your phone out of your bedroom, which is advice everybody has heard, but which is advice everybody has heard, but which is advice everybody has heard, but nobody does." But if you get it out of nobody does." But if you get it out of nobody does." But if you get it out of your bedroom, that's adding friction so your bedroom, that's adding friction so your bedroom, that's adding friction so that it's now harder to reach for your that it's now harder to reach for your that it's now harder to reach for your phone because you'd have to get out of phone because you'd have to get out of phone because you'd have to get out of bed and you're cozy and you're not going bed and you're cozy and you're not going bed and you're cozy and you're not going to want to do that.

to want to do that. to want to do that. >> But also make sure that you put >> But also make sure that you put >> But also make sure that you put something on your bedside table that you something on your bedside table that you something on your bedside table that you want to do. Reduce friction for the want to do. Reduce friction for the want to do. Reduce friction for the things you want to spend time on and add things you want to spend time on and add things you want to spend time on and add friction for the things you're trying to friction for the things you're trying to friction for the things you're trying to cut back on. And I've had so many people cut back on. And I've had so many people cut back on. And I've had so many people tell me that getting their phone into tell me that getting their phone into tell me that getting their phone into their bedroom and getting an alarm clock their bedroom and getting an alarm clock their bedroom and getting an alarm clock has literally, in their words, changed has literally, in their words, changed has literally, in their words, changed their lives and that they were able to their lives and that they were able to their lives and that they were able to read more and do these hobbies that they read more and do these hobbies that they read more and do these hobbies that they thought that they thought that they thought that they thought that they thought that they thought that they didn't have time for, but they actually didn't have time for, but they actually didn't have time for, but they actually did have time for it. It's just that it did have time for it. It's just that it did have time for it. It's just that it was so easy to just reach for your phone was so easy to just reach for your phone was so easy to just reach for your phone instead that that's how they and instead that that's how they and instead that that's how they and honestly all of us are spending our honestly all of us are spending our honestly all of us are spending our time. So yeah, I think it's essential to time. So yeah, I think it's essential to time. So yeah, I think it's essential to add friction. But what do you think? add friction. But what do you think? add friction. But what do you think? >> I'm I'm inspired to throw my phone out >> I'm I'm inspired to throw my phone out >> I'm I'm inspired to throw my phone out of my bedroom. We'll see if that of my bedroom. We'll see if that of my bedroom. We'll see if that actually happens. actually happens. actually happens. >> Just get an alarm clock. >> Just get an alarm clock. >> Just get an alarm clock. >> Okay. All right. I do think that when I >> Okay. All right. I do think that when I >> Okay. All right. I do think that when I think about the world right now, it think about the world right now, it think about the world right now, it really seems hard. Like it seems like really seems hard. Like it seems like really seems hard. Like it seems like there's more friction than um than even there's more friction than um than even there's more friction than um than even 10 years ago. And I I think that there's 10 years ago. And I I think that there's 10 years ago. And I I think that there's like even like getting on an airplane is like even like getting on an airplane is like even like getting on an airplane is getting harder and harder. And I feel getting harder and harder. And I feel getting harder and harder. And I feel like the way the economy is, there's like the way the economy is, there's like the way the economy is, there's going to be someone like you have to pay going to be someone like you have to pay going to be someone like you have to pay for all these little things. And at some for all these little things. And at some for all these little things. And at some point, I imagine they're going to be point, I imagine they're going to be point, I imagine they're going to be like, I'm going to just poke you in the like, I'm going to just poke you in the like, I'm going to just poke you in the head until you pay me $20. and like head until you pay me $20. and like head until you pay me $20. and like they're just inventing things that don't they're just inventing things that don't they're just inventing things that don't need to be invented so that you have to need to be invented so that you have to need to be invented so that you have to pay to get rid of them essentially. So pay to get rid of them essentially. So pay to get rid of them essentially. So it seems like there's so many more steps it seems like there's so many more steps it seems like there's so many more steps and so much more friction and so much more friction and so much more friction >> that we have to deal with just to go >> that we have to deal with just to go >> that we have to deal with just to go grocery shopping um that haven't been grocery shopping um that haven't been grocery shopping um that haven't been there in the past. So So yeah, I also there in the past. So So yeah, I also there in the past. So So yeah, I also would push back on the premise. It would push back on the premise. It would push back on the premise. It doesn't feel um easeful in life these doesn't feel um easeful in life these doesn't feel um easeful in life these days.

days. days. >> Right. All right. Where should someone start if they want Where should someone start if they want to bring a little more wildness into to bring a little more wildness into to bring a little more wildness into their life? their life? their life? >> I mean, I I always think people should >> I mean, I I always think people should >> I mean, I I always think people should grow plants. Everyone Everyone should grow plants. Everyone Everyone should grow plants. Everyone Everyone should grow plants. If they live inside, you grow plants. If they live inside, you grow plants. If they live inside, you can grow house plants. They're so can grow house plants. They're so can grow house plants. They're so wonderful. If you have any access to the wonderful. If you have any access to the wonderful. If you have any access to the outside world, even a window sill or a outside world, even a window sill or a outside world, even a window sill or a stoop, you can grow milkweed and golden stoop, you can grow milkweed and golden stoop, you can grow milkweed and golden rod. And it's wonderful to have an rod. And it's wonderful to have an rod. And it's wonderful to have an excuse to just sit and stare at a excuse to just sit and stare at a excuse to just sit and stare at a flower. flower. flower. >> And I think that process >> And I think that process >> And I think that process again, it's an offering, right? It's not again, it's an offering, right? It's not again, it's an offering, right? It's not so much about you as something that you so much about you as something that you so much about you as something that you are giving back to the other earthlings are giving back to the other earthlings are giving back to the other earthlings in your environment. And that can be in your environment. And that can be in your environment. And that can be really freeing uh for so many people. really freeing uh for so many people. really freeing uh for so many people. >> How about you? What do you think? >> How about you? What do you think? >> How about you? What do you think? >> How to bring wildness into your life. I >> How to bring wildness into your life. I >> How to bring wildness into your life. I think that rebelling a bit is what I think that rebelling a bit is what I think that rebelling a bit is what I would say to that when I talk to people would say to that when I talk to people would say to that when I talk to people about their past fun experiences because about their past fun experiences because about their past fun experiences because I was trying to search around for a I was trying to search around for a I was trying to search around for a better definition for fun than what's in better definition for fun than what's in better definition for fun than what's in the dictionary because the dictionary the dictionary because the dictionary the dictionary because the dictionary just said it's light-hearted pleasure just said it's light-hearted pleasure just said it's light-hearted pleasure and amusement. But when I talked to and amusement. But when I talked to and amusement. But when I talked to people, there was this deep undercurrent people, there was this deep undercurrent people, there was this deep undercurrent of joy and this sense of connection to of joy and this sense of connection to of joy and this sense of connection to other people in a really emotionally other people in a really emotionally other people in a really emotionally powerful way. The one thing that came up powerful way. The one thing that came up powerful way. The one thing that came up again and again was this kind of playful again and again was this kind of playful again and again was this kind of playful rebellion of kind of breaking the rules rebellion of kind of breaking the rules rebellion of kind of breaking the rules a bit. In my TED talk, I talk about

a bit. In my TED talk, I talk about a bit. In my TED talk, I talk about breaking the rules of responsible breaking the rules of responsible breaking the rules of responsible adulthood. You know, giving yourself adulthood. You know, giving yourself adulthood. You know, giving yourself permission to enjoy your your own life. permission to enjoy your your own life. permission to enjoy your your own life. And I don't think we do that enough. And And I don't think we do that enough. And And I don't think we do that enough. And so, I think you can introduce a bit of so, I think you can introduce a bit of so, I think you can introduce a bit of wildness by just doing something a wildness by just doing something a wildness by just doing something a little bit unconventional or something little bit unconventional or something little bit unconventional or something that quote breaks the rules, whether that quote breaks the rules, whether that quote breaks the rules, whether it's the rules you have for yourself or it's the rules you have for yourself or it's the rules you have for yourself or that society has placed on you as a that society has placed on you as a that society has placed on you as a adult. So, it could be as simple as adult. So, it could be as simple as adult. So, it could be as simple as saying to yourself, you know what? saying to yourself, you know what? saying to yourself, you know what? Today, I am going to take a different Today, I am going to take a different Today, I am going to take a different path on my way home or I'm going to path on my way home or I'm going to path on my way home or I'm going to leave my phone behind and I'm going to leave my phone behind and I'm going to leave my phone behind and I'm going to look at the world around me and I'm look at the world around me and I'm look at the world around me and I'm going to notice the butterflies. Like going to notice the butterflies. Like going to notice the butterflies. Like that's adding, well, in that case, a bit that's adding, well, in that case, a bit that's adding, well, in that case, a bit of literal wildness to your life. But I of literal wildness to your life. But I of literal wildness to your life. But I also love the idea of if you're someone also love the idea of if you're someone also love the idea of if you're someone who commutes, like don't listen to the who commutes, like don't listen to the who commutes, like don't listen to the news or some podcast to educate news or some podcast to educate news or some podcast to educate yourself. Maybe just listen to a song yourself. Maybe just listen to a song yourself. Maybe just listen to a song you really loved when you were 17 and you really loved when you were 17 and you really loved when you were 17 and just sing along loudly to yourself and just sing along loudly to yourself and just sing along loudly to yourself and just enjoy that. To me, that's adding a just enjoy that. To me, that's adding a just enjoy that. To me, that's adding a little bit of wildness and a bit of little bit of wildness and a bit of little bit of wildness and a bit of unpredictability to your life. unpredictability to your life. unpredictability to your life. >> And I think that that is so important >> And I think that that is so important >> And I think that that is so important and it reminds us of what makes us and it reminds us of what makes us and it reminds us of what makes us alive. And I would say that it's a very alive. And I would say that it's a very alive. And I would say that it's a very similar thing as to cultivating actual similar thing as to cultivating actual similar thing as to cultivating actual plants. You know, I really think it's so plants. You know, I really think it's so plants. You know, I really think it's so important for us to do whatever we can important for us to do whatever we can important for us to do whatever we can to bring out our aliveness and to to bring out our aliveness and to to bring out our aliveness and to connect with and respect other people connect with and respect other people connect with and respect other people and other creatures aliveness.

and other creatures aliveness. and other creatures aliveness. >> Yeah. When I think that that connection >> Yeah. When I think that that connection >> Yeah. When I think that that connection to other creatures is really really to other creatures is really really to other creatures is really really central to a lot of the isolation and central to a lot of the isolation and central to a lot of the isolation and loneliness that people feel like we are loneliness that people feel like we are loneliness that people feel like we are >> surrounded by song birds who are saying >> surrounded by song birds who are saying >> surrounded by song birds who are saying things to each other. Sometimes we can things to each other. Sometimes we can things to each other. Sometimes we can even understand those things. Like even understand those things. Like even understand those things. Like there's a bird outside of my house that there's a bird outside of my house that there's a bird outside of my house that when my dog comes outside always makes when my dog comes outside always makes when my dog comes outside always makes the same call and I know what that bird the same call and I know what that bird the same call and I know what that bird is saying. It's really exciting. And is saying. It's really exciting. And is saying. It's really exciting. And when you start to recognize the trees when you start to recognize the trees when you start to recognize the trees and um the butterflies and the flowers and um the butterflies and the flowers and um the butterflies and the flowers as you walk around, it's literally like as you walk around, it's literally like as you walk around, it's literally like you have friends, you know? I'm always you have friends, you know? I'm always you have friends, you know? I'm always like, "Hey, hey, I know you." And when I like, "Hey, hey, I know you." And when I like, "Hey, hey, I know you." And when I see like a very rare flower, it's like see like a very rare flower, it's like see like a very rare flower, it's like meeting a celebrity. It's just like meeting a celebrity. It's just like meeting a celebrity. It's just like amazing experience. And I I often wonder amazing experience. And I I often wonder amazing experience. And I I often wonder if much of the isolation that people if much of the isolation that people if much of the isolation that people experience is environmental isolation. experience is environmental isolation. experience is environmental isolation. Is that real break from the natural Is that real break from the natural Is that real break from the natural world and not knowing um all of these world and not knowing um all of these world and not knowing um all of these incredible creatures that are are incredible creatures that are are incredible creatures that are are already around us. Mhm.

already around us. Mhm. already around us. Mhm. >> If you have a lawn and if you live in a >> If you have a lawn and if you live in a >> If you have a lawn and if you live in a place with a lawn, take a little bit of place with a lawn, take a little bit of place with a lawn, take a little bit of that lawn away and plant those flowers that lawn away and plant those flowers that lawn away and plant those flowers there. there. there. >> Lawns are so fundamentally about >> Lawns are so fundamentally about >> Lawns are so fundamentally about control. They are literally a crew cut, control. They are literally a crew cut, control. They are literally a crew cut, right? It's a crew cut that is happening right? It's a crew cut that is happening right? It's a crew cut that is happening um to the earth over and over in um to the earth over and over in um to the earth over and over in perpetuity. And to just and they're perpetuity. And to just and they're perpetuity. And to just and they're important. Lawns can be a very good important. Lawns can be a very good important. Lawns can be a very good habitat for people, right? They sort of habitat for people, right? They sort of habitat for people, right? They sort of tell people where they belong in a tell people where they belong in a tell people where they belong in a landscape. But it can also be freeing landscape. But it can also be freeing landscape. But it can also be freeing um and rewarding to just push back a um and rewarding to just push back a um and rewarding to just push back a little bit on that level of control and little bit on that level of control and little bit on that level of control and to make space for all of the other to make space for all of the other to make space for all of the other organisms that are going to use that organisms that are going to use that organisms that are going to use that land aside from people. land aside from people. land aside from people. >> I love that as a concrete suggestion for >> I love that as a concrete suggestion for >> I love that as a concrete suggestion for how to let go of control. Let go of some how to let go of control. Let go of some how to let go of control. Let go of some of your lawn. of your lawn. of your lawn. >> Yeah, just a little corner. You can >> Yeah, just a little corner. You can >> Yeah, just a little corner. You can start really small. There's this whole start really small. There's this whole start really small. There's this whole punk rock movement right now of kill punk rock movement right now of kill punk rock movement right now of kill your lawn and uh it's cool. I support your lawn and uh it's cool. I support your lawn and uh it's cool. I support it, but it's not mine. You know, I think it, but it's not mine. You know, I think it, but it's not mine. You know, I think that lawns are really important for that lawns are really important for that lawns are really important for people, right? They can sort of say in a people, right? They can sort of say in a people, right? They can sort of say in a landscape, especially a park, this is landscape, especially a park, this is landscape, especially a park, this is where you belong in a landscape. But it where you belong in a landscape. But it where you belong in a landscape. But it doesn't mean that those lawns need to be doesn't mean that those lawns need to be doesn't mean that those lawns need to be >> the default of every single landscape. I >> the default of every single landscape. I >> the default of every single landscape. I think a lot of people have lawn because think a lot of people have lawn because think a lot of people have lawn because they don't know what else to do with they don't know what else to do with they don't know what else to do with land or they are scared that if they land or they are scared that if they land or they are scared that if they stop mowing, a jungle will grow and stop mowing, a jungle will grow and stop mowing, a jungle will grow and there will be snakes. That's a common there will be snakes. That's a common there will be snakes. That's a common common fear.

common fear. common fear. >> Really? Straight to the snakes. straight >> Really? Straight to the snakes. straight >> Really? Straight to the snakes. straight to snakes. to snakes. to snakes. >> But that also makes me think of like the >> But that also makes me think of like the >> But that also makes me think of like the lawn as a play space like what we were lawn as a play space like what we were lawn as a play space like what we were talking about before where a lawn, you talking about before where a lawn, you talking about before where a lawn, you know, if you ask people what would you know, if you ask people what would you know, if you ask people what would you do on a lawn, the first things that come do on a lawn, the first things that come do on a lawn, the first things that come to my mind are a picnic or cartwheels or to my mind are a picnic or cartwheels or to my mind are a picnic or cartwheels or flag football or something like the flag football or something like the flag football or something like the space itself can give us permission to space itself can give us permission to space itself can give us permission to play, which is interesting. play, which is interesting. play, which is interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. It really is a space that >> Yeah. Yeah. It really is a space that >> Yeah. Yeah. It really is a space that people get to enjoy it. It's like the people get to enjoy it. It's like the people get to enjoy it. It's like the habitat for people, right? And so, as I habitat for people, right? And so, as I habitat for people, right? And so, as I said, it's much better to see lawn as an said, it's much better to see lawn as an said, it's much better to see lawn as an area rug rather than wall-to-wall area rug rather than wall-to-wall area rug rather than wall-to-wall carpet. It's just that little space that carpet. It's just that little space that carpet. It's just that little space that you need, and then you can seed the rest you need, and then you can seed the rest you need, and then you can seed the rest of that for wildlife. of that for wildlife. of that for wildlife. >> And like, who wants wall-to-wall carpet >> And like, who wants wall-to-wall carpet >> And like, who wants wall-to-wall carpet these days? That's very 1970s. these days? That's very 1970s. these days? That's very 1970s. >> True. >> True. >> True. >> Thank you, Catherine. That was so >> Thank you, Catherine. That was so >> Thank you, Catherine. That was so lovely. And I learned a lot, and I'm lovely. And I learned a lot, and I'm lovely. And I learned a lot, and I'm inspired to get rid of my phone and have inspired to get rid of my phone and have inspired to get rid of my phone and have more fun. more fun. more fun. >> Thank you, Rebecca. I am going to plant >> Thank you, Rebecca. I am going to plant >> Thank you, Rebecca. I am going to plant a tomato and some milkweed.